ELI5: LFP Batteries and Cold Weather

[BlackFlagBop]

I've been seeing a lot of posts about how the batteries they've chosen have historically had issues in cold weather. I know nothing about batteries.

1) What kind of issues does this cause? Is it just decreased range in the short term, or are there long term deleterious effects as well?

2) How cold of weather are we talking before one starts to see issues?

3) (and here's where I hope someone can break it down in crayon) What causes this issue, and what about other battery chemistries makes them resistant to the problem(s)?

 

[ElectricShitbox]

I've been seeing a lot of posts about how the batteries they've chosen have historically had issues in cold weather. I know nothing about batteries.

1) What kind of issues does this cause? Is it just decreased range in the short term, or are there long term deleterious effects as well?

2) How cold of weather are we talking before one starts to see issues?

3) (and here's where I hope someone can break it down in crayon) What causes this issue, and what about other battery chemistries makes them resistant to the problem(s)?

Just from what I already know, LFP chemistry doesn't like to charge when it's below freezing. It can still discharge fine, but to charge, it needs to be warmed up. So if you plug it in while very cold, the battery heater will need to warm up the pack first. I believe sometimes regen is limited until the battery warms up too.

 

[alegory575]

I've been seeing a lot of posts about how the batteries they've chosen have historically had issues in cold weather. I know nothing about batteries.

1) What kind of issues does this cause? Is it just decreased range in the short term, or are there long term deleterious effects as well?

2) How cold of weather are we talking before one starts to see issues?

3) (and here's where I hope someone can break it down in crayon) What causes this issue, and what about other battery chemistries makes them resistant to the problem(s)?

LFP batteries do tend to be more sensitive in the cold, so it's a valid question regarding how much it actually impacts long-term health.

 

[The Weatherman]

Just do a Google search on the subject matter and let Gemi give you a brief definition.

 

[RetiredOnPaper]

And yet LFP batteries (from China) are in the Model 3s in Canada. Not known for warm weather. They seem to do just fine. Just stay aware there is a lot of FUD out there. (FUD = Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt.) Misinformation abounds when it comes to battery chemistry. (Not an easy subject if I recall my P Chem class.)

 

[BlackFlagBop]

Just do a Google search on the subject matter and let Gemi give you a brief definition.

Nah, I'd rather get a correct answer.

I figured someone here might be well versed enough in battery chemistry and might be able to break it down into simple terms for a lay person.

 

[Kopsis]

Low temperatures cause two problems for LFP. One is simply that LFP discharge at low temps has higher internal resistance than NMC so you're effectively losing capacity to overcome that. Some studies show LFP capacity drops as much as 55% at -20°C. NMC discharge at -20°C drops capacity by only around 35%.

But in both cases, the increased internal resistance heats the battery, so don't just assume you're going to lose 55% of your range in sub-freezing temps. The length of your trips can be a big factor with many short trips having a more noticeable impact on cold temperature range than a few long ones.

The other problem is charging. Charging (from any source including regen) below 0°C can cause permanent battery degradation. So most EVs will have a battery heater to bring the battery temperature into the safe charging range when operating. That heater takes battery power, which costs range. And just like discharge, short trips will cost you more range since they allow less time for battery self-heating and cause the heater to run a greater percentage of the time.

 

[007]

Batteries don't work as well in very cold temperatures. They might not take as much charge. Range might be lower. This does not "hurt" the battery in any way or decrease its life. You might plan ahead for less range in cold weather. In warm weather it returns to normal.

What if electric cars came before ICE? And these new ICE cars were going to be hard to start in cold weather, the engines would run sluggish, get worse mileage, and be a pain in the ass in winter. Maybe we would rather keep electric cars that just need an extra charge every now and then.

 

[GrizzlysGhost]

Batteries don't work as well in very cold temperatures. They might not take as much charge. Range might be lower. This does not "hurt" the battery in any way or decrease its life. You might plan ahead for less range in cold weather. In warm weather it returns to normal.

What if electric cars came before ICE? And these new ICE cars were going to be hard to start in cold weather, the engines would run sluggish, get worse mileage, and be a pain in the ass in winter. Maybe we would rather keep electric cars that just need an extra charge every now and then.

Growing up in NW montana, we always had block heaters because ICE vehicles (the only option really) were hard to start in cold weather. I don't have block heaters on any of my vehicles now, but I do put them on battery tenders during the winter (since I don't drive much).

Most "factory type" businesses around here still have outlets in their employee parking lots so folks can plug in their cars (block heaters).

 

[Shrink36s]

What if I knit the battery a nice warm sweater?

 

[BlackFlagBop]

What if I knit the battery a nice warm sweater?

Thanks for making sure I have Weezer stuck in my head for the next few hours. Appreciate it...........

 

[007]

Growing up in NW montana, we always had block heaters because ICE vehicles (the only option really) were hard to start in cold weather. I don't have block heaters on any of my vehicles now, but I do put them on battery tenders during the winter (since I don't drive much).

Most "factory type" businesses around here still have outlets in their employee parking lots so folks can plug in their cars (block heaters).

Block heaters typically are 400 watts. I bet they don't want folks plugging electric cars in.

 

[kvermeer]

Block heaters typically are 400 watts. I bet they don't want folks plugging electric cars in.

You could probably plug in to run battery preconditioning and warm the cabin, that won't draw too much power.

 

[Cubicle23]

Just do a Google search on the subject matter and let Gemi give you a brief definition.

Gemini told me the best stain remover for a glazed ceramic surface was to mix bleach, toothpaste and ammonia to make a polishing compound...... that means Gemini is either incompetent or homicidal, 50/50 on that guess.

 

[FloppaEnjoyer8067]

Gemini told me the best stain remover for a glazed ceramic surface was to mix bleach, toothpaste and ammonia to make a polishing compound...... that means Gemini is either incompetent or homicidal, 50/50 on that guess.

Back when AI was still rolling out, it said to throw car batteries into the ocean to recharge electric eels... I also remember some weird fake pizza recipe's from reddit that involved chemicals