From TheDrive.com - Ford’s CEO Doesn’t Want You Fixing Your New Bronco. He Says It’s About Safety

[E90400K]

Forgot to mention something else here that's going on too that automakers are starting to crack down on with diagnostics.

Turns out Kia Boyz had it all wrong with the USB cable. Turns out you actually plug the USB cable into the car itself and tell the car to start its "all keys lost" procedure and program new universal keys to the vehicle and drive off with it. That's been the joys of automotive products like Autel's lovely little key programming tools getting into peoples hands for under $500.



As a result... the 'security gateway' crackdowns have begun in the 2024s+. Automakers are starting to require "vehicle security professional" credentials to access diagnostics on anything new. The National Automotive Service Task Force has bullied themselves into being the credentialing source to authenticate technicians moving onwards. Scan tools are getting locked down.

Hyundai has become the absolute worst here. You must have the VSP credentials to do literally any vehicle diagnostics action from their software. Doesn't matter if you're just reading a code out with it, sorry, you have to basically be a licensed, bonded automotive professional.

Drop $2000 on the Hyundai passthru? Drop hundreds on the software? BZZT. Sorry. You're still not Worthy Enough To Touch It.

Effing gross.

Weren't the Kia products the easiest to steal via key/ignition code theft not so long ago? Probably the driver for Kia's lockdown move (?).

 

[E90400K]

The data collection/surveillance issue is a genie already out of the bottle, to avoid it requires some conscience effort and a major change in lifestyle. Not so much for the repair side of the discussion.

I don't want to see the software code nor do I need to see the software code. I just need to make the code do what is was designed to do without a $10,000 paywall.

Take something as simple as a Tire Pressure Monitoring system (TPMS). Right now if the light comes on and the local tire shop says your TPMS module is bad, you have 3 choices: take it to the dealership, take it to an independent shop that has paid for those expensive subscription services for their specific test/service equipment for your make of car IF the car manufacturer releases it, or live with the stupid horseshoe shaped light staying lit on your dash.

These large fees to the independent shops makes sense. The shop decides if their business model can support the costs based upon the services they provide and number of customers they service. That is IF the manufacture releases the information to the independent shop (I am looking at you TESLA). There is no business model for the average person who only wants to fix one vehicle to justify these expenses. You are then forced to the dealership. If you need to replace a ECU (any ECU), you may need to flash that new ECU to get it to recognize the VIN of your car. To flash an ECU, you need the $10,000 worth of equipment and subscriptions.

Sure with ICE vehicles giving way to EV, the dealership revenue stream will need to shift from expensive mechanical drive line repair/maintenance to expensive software equipment flashing and recalibration. Not every shop can justify an ADAS calibration system to preform simple service or repair work.

When the manufacture requires ADAS calibration as part of a replacement of the cruise control button on the steering wheel, a new headlight bulb, or a windshield replacement for safety and liability issues, the car owners choices are limited.

For your TPMS example do you think Slate is going to be any more forthcoming with a repair solution than Ford, or GM, et.al.? I bet Slate licenses the software from its TPMS supplier and has no right to sublicense the code to you or access to the TPMS module (even worse if its in a VM environment). If it uses TPMS.

Let's hope in this tire pressure monitoring example Slate has chosen the FTM route that only uses wheel speed sensors to notify the driver of a flat tire. The only thing to break to cause a FTM system failure is the speed sensor. Hopefully Slate has made the sensor a replaceable transducer reading a reluctor wheel (vs. built into the wheel bearing). And Keiper's Slate app gives you the speed sensor failure code for diagnosis and replacement.

 

[Ruff]

Not asking the Slate to be complete answer to the whole CANBUS access issue. Just hoping it is easier to fix than my other cars.

 

[tubes]

For your TPMS example do you think Slate is going to be any more forthcoming with a repair solution than Ford, or GM, et.al.? I bet Slate licenses the software from its TPMS supplier and has no right to sublicense the code to you or access to the TPMS module (even worse if its in a VM environment). If it uses TPMS.

Let's hope in this tire pressure monitoring example Slate has chosen the FTM route that only uses wheel speed sensors to notify the driver of a flat tire. The only thing to break to cause a FTM system failure is the speed sensor, which hopefully Slate has made a replaceable transducer reading a reluctor wheel (vs. built into the wheel bearing). And Keiper's Slate app gives you the speed sensor failure code.

We already know a little about this. In the settings screen run-through in one of the videos, there was a "Tire Pressure" section that simply had a "reset" option. This probably leans to the FTM solution. If a speed sensor fails, it will also throw an ABS light. I think this will be very repairable compared to the in wheel pressure senders.

 

[Ruff]

We already know a little about this. In the settings screen run-through in one of the videos, there was a "Tire Pressure" section that simply had a "reset" option. This probably leans to the FTM solution. If a speed sensor fails, it will also throw an ABS light. I think this will be very repairable compared to the in wheel pressure senders.

Well, almost. That is not what we are talking about. What happens when the module that reads the tire pressures fails? How hard is it to replace the module? What calibration tools are needed, what diagnostic steps need to be applied. I used the TPMS sensor as an example.

On a modern cars there could be over 80 such modules.

But even simple routine stuff usually done in your driveway now requires special diagnostic tools.

 

[tubes]

It's an example that I added context to. I get it, that's the tip of the iceberg.

It is on my mind right now because I can't do shit with my Honda Odyssey's valve stem leak. I'm going to have to go to Discount Tire and get it replaced because I don't have the TPMS sensor reset tool (new TPMS module required due to the way the thing is built). And I also don't feel like breaking the bead on the tire and trying to slip in there.

 

[jmason]

The Slate is a simple vehicle and is built to be as simple as a modern EV can be. All service on the vehicle supposedly can be done by the customer and if the task seems daunting there's Slate U. However, I'm never ever gonna mess with BMS/high voltage battery pack. Something goes screwy there it's time to go to whatever shop Slate designates as capable of addressing the issue.

Noticed the thread swerved into data collection as a 'feature' of technically sophisticated new vehicles. Duh. When Chevy decided to kill CarPlay/AndroidAuto in their cars it was clear that they didn't want me to buy their product, they wanted me to pay to be their product along with a neat subscription fee to just make their crappy software work (when it doesn't brick the car). No way. After they did that I decided then and there no more Bolts, no more GM. Slate makes the best firewall against corporate hunger for my personal data: no tech, unless you want to load it up yourself and know how to use the fuse box.

I plan to keep the Slate as simple as possible. The only thing I might try is a wireless CarPlay screen that I'll put on the dash and let my iPhone firewall my data. As for customers doing that scary safety inhibiting home repair 😱 I'll do what I can as needed but I'm too old and too lazy to rotate my own damn tires!

 

[kotaKat]

Weren't the Kia products the easiest to steal via key/ignition code theft not so long ago? Probably the driver for Kia's lockdown move (?).

The Autel reprogramming was actually the bigger straw for the lockdown moves to require NASTF VSP credentials. Apparently the Boyz were also just buying the $500 devices themselves online and running off with the cars. There were quite a few auto theft rings that got busted with them. I was slightly amused that a 15 year old was caught with several high powered rifles... and the Autel and a bunch of generic fobs ready to go.

Plugging a device into the OBD2 and being able to just send commands on the CANbus that say "add a new key please" is... Kinda Bad, all things considered. This is also a step adjacent from the attacks seen on Rav4s from the headlights (where someone attached a device on from outside the vehicle to pop the doors open, then start the vehicle, then add a new key and drive off).

The other thing they're doing is forcing the tool manufacturers to remove their support as well to drive you back to the official solutions and officially sanctioned tools with NASTF support - Autel now no longer allows access to a few automakers in the US (supposedly, but there's ways around that - also supposedly).



... Also back to a thought about service software for the Slate -- can we have something comprehensive like Tesla Toolbox, please?

 

[Johnologue]

Should also be noted that "repair vs. safety/security" is just a stock argument for automakers...there were ads against right-to-repair laws with women getting ambushed in dark parking lots because of data being accessible or something.

Of course, it could have just as easily been an argument against all the data they collect in the first place (I believe that has since happened in California and they're quite upset about it), but it's a worthwhile sacrifice if it makes ads more relevant to your interests, not if it actually protects small businesses, your money, or your freedoms.

That aside, I've heard good arguments against TPMS, and I would definitely rather have the ABS sensors than the pointless wireless network, expensive sensors in the wheels, etc.

 

[Rocks]

That aside, I've heard good arguments against TPMS, and I would definitely rather have the ABS sensors than the pointless wireless network, expensive sensors in the wheels, etc.

In my '12 Jeep, I just toggled TPMS off. Had one iffy sensor that kept throwing the light. Survived this long without it, I'll be fine.

Mostly it's a liability shield for the OEM. "See your light was on, the rollover was your fault, no matter how crappy the tires we put on it are."

Also, no one does maintenance anymore without an app notification.

 

[1yeliab_sufur1]

Ford’s CEO Doesn’t Want You Fixing Your New Bronco. He Says It’s About Safety
A quiet fight in Washington over vehicle data could decide whether independent mechanics can still fix your car at all.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/fords...xing-your-new-bronco-he-says-its-about-safety

Another reason I'm looking forward to Slate (U)niversity. Encouraging owners to think about what they can do with their vehicles.
https://www.slate.auto/en/slate-u

Would be fun to see if they can get the Slate trucks into schools and trade shops to show incoming students and staff on what's possible.
I enjoyed hands on work during my academic years.

"And someone from the Detroit Free Press caught Jim Farley at another event and they asked him point blank, “So you don’t want people repairing your own vehicles?” And you can watch the video on on Freep’s website. He kind of does these like Homelander eyes and is like, “Well, you know, no, it’s it’s a safety issue. Oh, you know, I can work on my old Bronco but I wouldn’t want to work on a new Bronco.” And as I was listening to that, I was thinking like, what a weird car to pick. Like if he had said Ford GT or like even Mustang Mach-E, I might have been like, yeah, okay, I guess. But a freaking Bronco, man, that’s like caveman technology."

He can as nice as I can put it merk himself