Aptera-style solar panels in SUV option.

[Paul Rodgers]

Oh now you have my attention
Yes, I know, my numbers are tiny.
But of lot of us camping folk would love to hear the details.

Because the devil is in the details. I talk about it non-stop.

Its taken me 3 years, to get to a "comfortable" place.
My neighbors are only just starting.

There are a lot of folk out here, willing to give up the mortgage-payment,
the insurance-payment, the HOA payment.
Just stop paying? maybe get some peace back in our life.

BTW, listing says your in Hawaii, explains a bit.
Only been their twice, on business.
I can confirm that the airport, and hotels, from the inside are indistinguishable from NYC, San-Francisco, or just about anyplace in Europe.

SO? second time, I got fed up, went for a walk, quite a long one.
Found some fabulous food, a Triumph dealer, and came back with 2 shirts.
20 years ago, I still have them. Wear them only to startle my daughters.

 

[sodamo]

I'd rather set up a solar array at my house and charge when my truck was parked at home. The number of panels and total wattage would be almost limitless if your panels are stationary and angled to the south.

Disaapointed
After exchanging several PMs, I can only conclude you have little to no understanding of the Aptera approach to charging away from a grid tied system.
Was sincerely hoping you had knowledge, maybe experience related to below.

How do Aptera’s solar panels reduce charging needs and operating costs?
Aptera’s solar panels replace traditional exterior panels, allowing the vehicle to self-charge as it drives or sits in sunlight. This setup maximizes the use of solar energy, reducing reliance on the grid and potentially eliminating the need to charge at a station, a feature that results in significant long-term cost savings for owners.

 

[Paul Rodgers]

Sodamo, he has a point, a good one.
IF (and only if) the power co would pay you for the juice you pump back,
then, you get it back later, middle of the night, to charge?

So the issue is where does all that sunlight sit in-between?
Answer is BATTERIES, and they are expensive
So, until they get cheaper we burn coal.

Or some high-school group find a better way?

 

[sodamo]

Sodamo, he has a point, a good one.
IF (and only if) the power co would pay you for the juice you pump back,
then, you get it back later, middle of the night, to charge?

So the issue is where does all that sunlight sit in-between?
Answer is BATTERIES, and they are expensive
So, until they get cheaper we burn coal.

Or some high-school group find a better way?

Absolutely. You know it, I know it, anyone else can Google and know it.
BUT it doesn’t address the Aptera approach as laid out in their FAQ, How they can charge from PV without either gridtied or battery based system as we know them. Supposedly they have licensed said technology to Telo.
If there is or will be a technology that will will allow me to charge from home and bypass all but my PV, I’m more than curious. If said technology also allows some charging while on the road or in a parking lot - a bonus.

 

[KevinRS]

well, I dont think its a thing yet, but its still a great idea.
Only problem will be convincing the power company to change to a thing where they pay you, rather than you pay them.

I have a solar setup at my campsite, totally off-grid, about 3kW of solar and 15kwH of battery.
Runs fridge, lights, fans, small AC, microwave, stove etc.
If its heavy overcast for 3-4 days I need the generator to top up in the evening.

There is a power pole right across the street.
Florida-Power-and-Darkness want $7500 to connect me,
I think thats mostly the cost of a new pole, transformer and meter.
Then a monthly bill over $100 even if I dont use it.

SO I'll just hang in there burning sunlight.

That monthly $100 even with zero use seems excessive. There is more to the maintenance part than reading the meter though. The cost of maintaining and repairing all the lines has to be shared between all the customers.
For a couple of months here in California the solar companies have been advertising that the power company will pay for your solar and battery system, at no cost to you, with income qualification. Everyone who does that, along with every grid scale battery system helps flatten out the "duck's bill"
The thing to realize is before solar became widespread there wasn't a "ducks bill" there was a peak at the hottest time of day. Use approximated a sine wave, peaking in the afternoon. Solar production approximates a truncated portion of a sine wave, that peaks at solar noon, the duck's bill results from subtracting solar production from useage. If solar production was cut off tomorrow, there would be widespread blackouts, because non-solar production no longer can keep up with demand.

 

[AZFox]

The thing to realize is before solar became widespread there wasn't a "ducks bill" there was a peak at the hottest time of day. Use approximated a sine wave, peaking in the afternoon. Solar production approximates a truncated portion of a sine wave, that peaks at solar noon, the duck's bill results from subtracting solar production from useage. If solar production was cut off tomorrow, there would be widespread blackouts, because non-solar production no longer can keep up with demand.

One of the main reasons I'm on here is because I like to Learn New Stuff.

Today I discovered there's an energy "duck curve". Who knew?!

Thanks!

 

[sodamo]

Sodamo, he has a point, a good one.
IF (and only if) the power co would pay you for the juice you pump back,
then, you get it back later, middle of the night, to charge?

So the issue is where does all that sunlight sit in-between?
Answer is BATTERIES, and they are expensive
So, until they get cheaper we burn coal.

Or some high-school group find a better way?

Once my batteries are fully charged, then most is wasted. I have excess production and could be more at times, hence my interest in being able to use it to charge an EV.

 

[sodamo]

Oh now you have my attention
Yes, I know, my numbers are tiny.
But of lot of us camping folk would love to hear the details.

Because the devil is in the details. I talk about it non-stop.

Its taken me 3 years, to get to a "comfortable" place.
My neighbors are only just starting.

There are a lot of folk out here, willing to give up the mortgage-payment,
the insurance-payment, the HOA payment.
Just stop paying? maybe get some peace back in our life.

Happy to answer any questions. Perhaps a bit entertaining if I were to share story of the journey.

 

[sodamo]

BTW, listing says your in Hawaii, explains a bit.
Only been their twice, on business.
I can confirm that the airport, and hotels, from the inside are indistinguishable from NYC, San-Francisco, or just about anyplace in Europe.

SO? second time, I got fed up, went for a walk, quite a long one.
Found some fabulous food, a Triumph dealer, and came back with 2 shirts.
20 years ago, I still have them. Wear them only to startle my daughters.

I’m pretty much removed from tourist Hawaii. 21 acres of rural ag land on Hamakua coast.

 

[Paul Rodgers]

Absolutely. You know it, I know it, anyone else can Google and know it.
BUT it doesn’t address the Aptera approach as laid out in their FAQ, How they can charge from PV without either gridtied or battery based system as we know them. Supposedly they have licensed said technology to Telo.
If there is or will be a technology that will will allow me to charge from home and bypass all but my PV, I’m more than curious. If said technology also allows some charging while on the road or in a parking lot - a bonus.

Dude, its physics 101, I dont understand your post at all.
The are NOT saying "without either gridtied or battery", Aptera has a battery, not huge like an F150, but still pretty big

I have a camper, NO grid, just like an Aptera.
I have Batteries just like an Aptera, not nearly as much, but about 14kwH worth.
Been running for YEARS (although now on 2nd set of batteries)
Runs the AC, stove, fridge/freezer, lights, water-heater, . . . just like a very small house really.

1) The PV charges the battery
2) the battery makes the EV go
3) when battery is flat, you stop
4) if you plug it in, then the grid charges the battery (slowly), and off you go again

why does it seem so complicated to you?
Now there are quite a few technical hitches, I must agree:
- solar cells are usually just a few volts
- The Aptera battery is about 400 volts, even though each cell is about 4 volts.
- Li batteries need VERY careful management, or nasty things happen.
- a rack of batteries is MUCH heavier than a tank of gas

but there are many tech folk working these issues
It initially took 30 - 40 years for Car engines to develop, replace steam and trains.
we are about halfway there for batteries.

 

[Paul Rodgers]

AH! after re-reading this thread I think I see why a bunch of folk ore perplexed.
1)you have Solar
2) You have batteries

what happens when the batteries are full?
Answer: sell it back to the power company.

But the power company does not want it at 1pm, they already have rather more than they need at that time.
So they would have to install some batteries to store the stuff your sending back until 6pm, when they really need it. Or some other way, say pumped hydro, or heat-storage or whatever.
Now its a big capital expenditure, their shareholders dont want that, and Trump wont pay either!

SO they would rather you just install MORE batteries (so they are never full) and they take
a little slurp when they need it.

Its a good idea in theory, and if they would buy it from me at 15c/kwH when they need it,
vs the 12c/kwH at 2am they charge when they dont need it, there might be a case.

But they want to pay me 4c, (they all this the "avoided cost method") its just not worth it for me.

SO to answer the original question:
Once your batteries are full, all that excess power is just wasted,
Think of it as an overflow valve in your water tank, it just spills out and goes wherever nature takes it.

 

[sodamo]

Dude, its physics 101, I dont understand your post at all.
The are NOT saying "without either gridtied or battery", Aptera has a battery, not huge like an F150, but still pretty big

I have a camper, NO grid, just like an Aptera.
I have Batteries just like an Aptera, not nearly as much, but about 14kwH worth.
Been running for YEARS (although now on 2nd set of batteries)
Runs the AC, stove, fridge/freezer, lights, water-heater, . . . just like a very small house really.

1) The PV charges the battery
2) the battery makes the EV go
3) when battery is flat, you stop
4) if you plug it in, then the grid charges the battery (slowly), and off you go again

why does it seem so complicated to you?
Now there are quite a few technical hitches, I must agree:
- solar cells are usually just a few volts
- The Aptera battery is about 400 volts, even though each cell is about 4 volts.
- Li batteries need VERY careful management, or nasty things happen.
- a rack of batteries is MUCH heavier than a tank of gas

but there are many tech folk working these issues
It initially took 30 - 40 years for Car engines to develop, replace steam and trains.
we are about halfway there for batteries.

So let me try again. I thought what I was asking was obvious, but obviously not.
1st, pretty silly to suggest I thought Aptera did not have a battery Or I was referring to the EV battery when mentioning home systems.
Aptera apparently has technology that allows PV charging of the EV battery. There is some piece of technology between those PV and the EV battery. That technology is what they have licensed to Telo. That piece of technology is what I’m asking about. That technology is the missing piece I want to know more about. If Aptera doesn’t share that technology I’m hopeful someone else develops the capability.

Admirable you have solar on your camper, but either you don’t understand the system or maybe don’t understand how solar works.
yes, one can get DC only power from PV, not a very good method, as voltage will vary will the sun.
You say you produce AC power.
To do so, a minimum system would be PV, likely a charge controller, batteries, an inverter (makes your 120/240 vac from DC). Home system is basically same. A grid tied system may or may not have batteries, but still has inverters because the grid does not accept DC.
To my knowledge there are no home/camper EV chargers that accept DC only, but again, what I’m looking for. So I suspect you are charging from your batteries but thru the inverter with AC. If you are indeed charging your EV battery directly from your solar powered batteries, PLEASE enlighten me.
if I have any of this incorrect please let me know.

 

[sodamo]

AH! after re-reading this thread I think I see why a bunch of folk ore perplexed.
1)you have Solar
2) You have batteries

what happens when the batteries are full?
Answer: sell it back to the power company.

But the power company does not want it at 1pm, they already have rather more than they need at that time.
So they would have to install some batteries to store the stuff your sending back until 6pm, when they really need it. Or some other way, say pumped hydro, or heat-storage or whatever.
Now its a big capital expenditure, their shareholders dont want that, and Trump wont pay either!

SO they would rather you just install MORE batteries (so they are never full) and they take
a little slurp when they need it.

Its a good idea in theory, and if they would buy it from me at 15c/kwH when they need it,
vs the 12c/kwH at 2am they charge when they dont need it, there might be a case.

But they want to pay me 4c, (they all this the "avoided cost method") its just not worth it for me.

SO to answer the original question:
Once your batteries are full, all that excess power is just wasted,
Think of it as an overflow valve in your water tank, it just spills out and goes wherever nature takes it.

Actually, not quite. between the batteries and the PV sits the charge controller(s) to manage that DC voltage produced by the PV. there are several methods, but not important to discussion. When batteries are low the CC allows max flow of electrons to the batteries. As they fill, the flow will be adjusted. Once full flow will stop. CC will not overchrge the battery as it is detrimental. It will go into a trickle charge mode keeping battery near full as used.

 

[Paul Rodgers]

So let me try again. I thought what I was asking was obvious, but obviously not.
1st, pretty silly to suggest I thought Aptera did not have a battery Or I was referring to the EV battery when mentioning home systems.
Aptera apparently has technology that allows PV charging of the EV battery. There is some piece of technology between those PV and the EV battery. That technology is what they have licensed to Telo. That piece of technology is what I’m asking about. That technology is the missing piece I want to know more about. If Aptera doesn’t share that technology I’m hopeful someone else develops the capability.

Admirable you have solar on your camper, but either you don’t understand the system or maybe don’t understand how solar works.
yes, one can get DC only power from PV, not a very good method, as voltage will vary will the sun.
You say you produce AC power.
To do so, a minimum system would be PV, likely a charge controller, batteries, an inverter (makes your 120/240 vac from DC). Home system is basically same. A grid tied system may or may not have batteries, but still has inverters because the grid does not accept DC.
To my knowledge there are no home/camper EV chargers that accept DC only, but again, what I’m looking for. So I suspect you are charging from your batteries but thru the inverter with AC. If you are indeed charging your EV battery directly from your solar powered batteries, PLEASE enlighten me.
if I have any of this incorrect please let me know.

Good comments, but I disagree, quite a bit. Lets talk about how solar panels at 18v, 30 or 60v, and DC equipment at 24 or 36v can quite happily co-exist.

OK, its called an MPPT solar controller, low power ones are very cheap.

One side hooks up to the solar panels, most of the stuff on the market these days is good for strings of solar panels up to the 400 - 500v range, so wiring is usually pretty skinny

The other side hooks up to the batteries, and this is where you are dead right.
EV batteries are generally in the 400v range, some newer ones double that.
Home solar stuff is generally still under 100v.
Me? I currently have 3 systems 12, 24, and 36v,

- 12v 5 200w panels 18v in series, 2 200AH 12v deepcycle batteries, 800w AC inverter, this is what runs my charging station(s) for all my battery tools.
This is the first system I built, many years ago, Panels are all 2010, so I think its getting close to end-of-life.

- 24v, 12 * 290w panels, 4 * 4.5KWH LiFePO4 batteries, an Ecoworthy 3kw hybrid inverter
This is what runs the camper, 24*7, both 110v AC and 12v DC

- 36v, 2 400w panels at 60v each in series, 3 deepcycle lead batteries (from forklifts)
a 2kw inverter, but I added a separate voltage-controlled shutoff that cuts the inverter out when batteries are under 34v total. Wont bring it back until they reach 38
Built this to charge my ArciMoto (a 3-wheel EV) VERY SLOWLY,
but heck, I have all night.
It works OK, but it needs twice as much solar and battery. 2 days of overcast and I'm toast.

And a 36v golfcart system which is just 3 panels on the roof of a golfcart with an mppt controller.
No 110v AC at all.
Have not plugged that cart in for over a year, just leave it out to bake in the sun.

As you can see, over time I have gone to higher voltage batteries
I've done up to 72v, but nothing higher than that.

In all these cases the controller is a box of electronics, with input for solar, battery, and sometimes there is a built-in inverter, so there is an output for AC.

Now, this is where the EV space gets a bit sketchy, there are a few pieces out there for 400v battery, but not many (and extra $$ as you would expect)

But they do exist, this is the "magic bit" that Apera have figured out. So? hook that up between the solar and the battery and your EV is good to go. No AC power needed at all. Not even a connection to the EV charging port!

I don't think Apteras particular solution is this "black box", I would bet they buy it from someone.
Their particular skill is the cells that can be mounted in a not-flat panel, without all the extra weight of the frame and the glass. Or maybe they have the super thin glass like you see on cellphones?

I took an old, broken 390w panel apart last year. Glass was completely shattered by hail.
It weighed 51 lb when I started
The cells themselves were about 10lb, all told, ie 2-4 ounces each. Without the wire, varied quite a bit. So they were still pretty chunky, and more than half still worked!

 

[sodamo]

Good comments, but I disagree, quite a bit. Lets talk about how solar panels at 18v, 30 or 60v, and DC equipment at 24 or 36v can quite happily co-exist.

OK, its called an MPPT solar controller, low power ones are very cheap.

One side hooks up to the solar panels, most of the stuff on the market these days is good for strings of solar panels up to the 400 - 500v range, so wiring is usually pretty skinny

The other side hooks up to the batteries, and this is where you are dead right.
EV batteries are generally in the 400v range, some newer ones double that.
Home solar stuff is generally still under 100v.
Me? I currently have 3 systems 12, 24, and 36v,

- 12v 5 200w panels 18v in series, 2 200AH 12v deepcycle batteries, 800w AC inverter, this is what runs my charging station(s) for all my battery tools.
This is the first system I built, many years ago, Panels are all 2010, so I think its getting close to end-of-life.

- 24v, 12 * 290w panels, 4 * 4.5KWH LiFePO4 batteries, an Ecoworthy 3kw hybrid inverter
This is what runs the camper, 24*7, both 110v AC and 12v DC

- 36v, 2 400w panels at 60v each in series, 3 deepcycle lead batteries (from forklifts)
a 2kw inverter, but I added a separate voltage-controlled shutoff that cuts the inverter out when batteries are under 34v total. Wont bring it back until they reach 38
Built this to charge my ArciMoto (a 3-wheel EV) VERY SLOWLY,
but heck, I have all night.
It works OK, but it needs twice as much solar and battery. 2 days of overcast and I'm toast.

And a 36v golfcart system which is just 3 panels on the roof of a golfcart with an mppt controller.
No 110v AC at all.
Have not plugged that cart in for over a year, just leave it out to bake in the sun.

As you can see, over time I have gone to higher voltage batteries
I've done up to 72v, but nothing higher than that.

In all these cases the controller is a box of electronics, with input for solar, battery, and sometimes there is a built-in inverter, so there is an output for AC.

Now, this is where the EV space gets a bit sketchy, there are a few pieces out there for 400v battery, but not many (and extra $$ as you would expect)

But they do exist, this is the "magic bit" that Apera have figured out. So? hook that up between the solar and the battery and your EV is good to go. No AC power needed at all. Not even a connection to the EV charging port!

I don't think Apteras particular solution is this "black box", I would bet they buy it from someone.
Their particular skill is the cells that can be mounted in a not-flat panel, without all the extra weight of the frame and the glass. Or maybe they have the super thin glass like you see on cellphones?

I took an old, broken 390w panel apart last year. Glass was completely shattered by hail.
It weighed 51 lb when I started
The cells themselves were about 10lb, all told, ie 2-4 ounces each. Without the wire, varied quite a bit. So they were still pretty chunky, and more than half still worked!

Not sure what you are disagreeing about. Still saying you charge your EV directly from battery, no inverter? don’t think so.
Been totally off grid 20 years. 12, 24, 48 volt systems, on my 2nd 48 system, maybe detail later. 18.4 Kw PV, 57 Kw LiFePO, 16 kw inverters for now. Not a hobby, but my daily existence. my golf car was gas, but I sold it. Many of my friends and neighbors are also off grid. Could say this is an almost daily conversation, even if just to comment how sunny it has been.
some of the newer All in One systems will do high voltage DC, SolArk, Fortress are two I believe. Potentially I could use these, but not cost effectively.
You say these “black boxes” already exist. I simply want info to what they are, who has them, how to get. A link or two appreciated. You allude to a solution, yet still don’t answer the question. ID these pieces. I don’t care about there PV, only the tech that sits between them and their battery.