Wouldn't it be awesome to get the EV credit now?

[Daemoch]

I am trying to understand the thought process going around saying this vehicle is "designed to be worked on". Cosmetic and accessories, yes, it seems it will be easy- but mechanically? EVs are quite the opposite of that. Batteries are NOT designed to be worked on by any means, and generally just get recalled or replaced if there are issues. Even a top-notch youtube technician can not fix a PCB or isolation fault. And the battery is going to make up a majority of the cost on this machine...

EVs are sooooo much simpler. Simple? eh....no, holistically. But simpler? oh yes. You're just not used to them is all. Maybe thats part of the issue? There's so little there to work on that it seems like it must be a 'black box' - its not. Theres just not that much to them. Youre used to seeing a lot of things inside moving in a 'motor' not just coils of wire. :/ And yes, you CAN rebuild those, too.

Batteries are a bit more of a thing, sure. But I break down and rebuild packs all the time. Theres literally 2 in my shop right now in various states of dis/assembly. It can be done. Usually I recycle the old ones, and just like you would get a credit for a 'core charge' for a traditional alternator or starter, I trade mine in. They get processed (chemically/physically) and what can be reused gets reused. Youre not going to try and tell me that repairing a starter or alternator isnt possible, are you? Technically, Ford and Toyota and everyone else will tell you the alternator is a non-serviceable part too. Same with the 12v Lead Acid battery, IAC solenoid, fuel pump, and basically every other individual component. And we rebuild all those, or we trade them in for a 'core charge' so some other guy can rebuild them (like me). If you had any idea how many ECUs I've repaired or modified in my life time so far... And those are sealed up and buried in epoxy usually; definitely NOT intended to be a 'serviceable' part....but still serviced!

Which reminds me, if you cant "fix a PCB or isolation fault".....you need to set down the keyboard and think real hard about what you just said and maybe reconsider projecting your own capabilities and limitations on to other people. And your ability to search YouTube apparently; there's literally thousands of videos that can teach you that stuff. Thats the whole point of a Slate truck - we can each do it 'our way' as much or as little as we are capable of.

 

[sodamo]

EVs are sooooo much simpler. Simple? eh....no, holistically. But simpler? oh yes. You're just not used to them is all. Maybe thats part of the issue? There's so little there to work on that it seems like it must be a 'black box' - its not. Theres just not that much to them. Youre used to seeing a lot of things inside moving in a 'motor' not just coils of wire. :/ And yes, you CAN rebuild those, too.

Batteries are a bit more of a thing, sure. But I break down and rebuild packs all the time. Theres literally 2 in my shop right now in various states of dis/assembly. It can be done. Usually I recycle the old ones, and just like you would get a credit for a 'core charge' for a traditional alternator or starter, I trade mine in. They get processed (chemically/physically) and what can be reused gets reused. Youre not going to try and tell me that repairing a starter or alternator isnt possible, are you? Technically, Ford and Toyota and everyone else will tell you the alternator is a non-serviceable part too. Same with the 12v Lead Acid battery, IAC solenoid, fuel pump, and basically every other individual component. And we rebuild all those, or we trade them in for a 'core charge' so some other guy can rebuild them (like me). If you had any idea how many ECUs I've repaired or modified in my life time so far... And those are sealed up and buried in epoxy usually; definitely NOT intended to be a 'serviceable' part....but still serviced!

Which reminds me, if you cant "fix a PCB or isolation fault".....you need to set down the keyboard and think real hard about what you just said and maybe reconsider projecting your own capabilities and limitations on to other people. And your ability to search YouTube apparently; there's literally thousands of videos that can teach you that stuff. Thats the whole point of a Slate truck - we can each do it 'our way' as much or as little as we are capable of.

Agreed, but I think the pervasive mindset is things are replaceable, not repairable. Many of use grew up in the repairable era. We need return to that thinking.

 

[brian10x]

Agreed, but I think the pervasive mindset is things are replaceable, not repairable. Many of use grew up in the repairable era. We need return to that thinking.

I hope the day comes where its possible to rebuild a battery pack like the Slate has.

Or, as an alternative, I read that in China, they have an automated kiosk like building where you can drive in, have your battery automatically swapped, and be on your way, fully charged in a few minutes.

 

[KevinRS]

Part of the issue with most vehicles now, is they are trying to make them less and less repairable. Even a brake job with some cars and trim levels, you've got to connect to the computer and tell it to retract the rear calipers. Not every shop has the hardware and expensive software update to do that on every car.
My car has a CVT, it's worked no problem 10 years over 100k miles, now I'm told the pump in it is going out, $7k for a new transmission. With the new transmission in it there is no way I could sell it for 7k. So now I am driving it until it fails, if it lasts until I can get a slate, that is my plan, if not I'll have to come up with something else.

 

[Letas]

EVs are sooooo much simpler. Simple? eh....no, holistically. But simpler? oh yes. You're just not used to them is all. Maybe thats part of the issue? There's so little there to work on that it seems like it must be a 'black box' - its not. Theres just not that much to them. Youre used to seeing a lot of things inside moving in a 'motor' not just coils of wire. :/ And yes, you CAN rebuild those, too.

Batteries are a bit more of a thing, sure. But I break down and rebuild packs all the time. Theres literally 2 in my shop right now in various states of dis/assembly. It can be done. Usually I recycle the old ones, and just like you would get a credit for a 'core charge' for a traditional alternator or starter, I trade mine in. They get processed (chemically/physically) and what can be reused gets reused. Youre not going to try and tell me that repairing a starter or alternator isnt possible, are you? Technically, Ford and Toyota and everyone else will tell you the alternator is a non-serviceable part too. Same with the 12v Lead Acid battery, IAC solenoid, fuel pump, and basically every other individual component. And we rebuild all those, or we trade them in for a 'core charge' so some other guy can rebuild them (like me). If you had any idea how many ECUs I've repaired or modified in my life time so far... And those are sealed up and buried in epoxy usually; definitely NOT intended to be a 'serviceable' part....but still serviced!

Which reminds me, if you cant "fix a PCB or isolation fault".....you need to set down the keyboard and think real hard about what you just said and maybe reconsider projecting your own capabilities and limitations on to other people. And your ability to search YouTube apparently; there's literally thousands of videos that can teach you that stuff. Thats the whole point of a Slate truck - we can each do it 'our way' as much or as little as we are capable of.

Great perspective, but, you just described how it is “work-on-able” the same as current ICEs, not more so.

You’re absolutely correct, you can fix those things, I know that side of the industry well. But the barrier to entry is similar, if not higher than with ICEs.

How do you recycle your packs? Just curious

 

[Daemoch]

I hope the day comes where its possible to rebuild a battery pack like the Slate has.

Or, as an alternative, I read that in China, they have an automated kiosk like building where you can drive in, have your battery automatically swapped, and be on your way, fully charged in a few minutes.

Ive been waiting for someone to spin up an outfit like that. It would dump the whole 'range anxiety' argument out of the conversation. Its the same argument they used to make about horses vs cars; "So how do you feed your car between cities? Thanks, I'll stick with my horse."

 

[Dorbiman]

Ive been waiting for someone to spin up an outfit like that. It would dump the whole 'range anxiety' argument out of the conversation. Its the same argument they used to make about horses vs cars; "So how do you feed your car between cities? Thanks, I'll stick with my horse."

I have some questions and concerns with it, mainly around battery longevity and ownership. Do *I* own a/the battery? If so, I wouldn't want to swap my (potentially) good battery pack with one that is severely degraded.

On the flipside, if I can swap a pack at one of these sites and that pack is now mine....maybe that could be good for people who are concerned with pack longevity. If I don't own the pack, maybe it's battery health is not my problem.

Also also also, is this pack only compatible with one make & model? If so, that makes these essentially obsolete in my eyes. Could be cool for Uber/fleet vehicles, but that would be their own deal I suppose.

 

[Daemoch]

Part of the issue with most vehicles now, is they are trying to make them less and less repairable. Even a brake job with some cars and trim levels, you've got to connect to the computer and tell it to retract the rear calipers. Not every shop has the hardware and expensive software update to do that on every car.
My car has a CVT, it's worked no problem 10 years over 100k miles, now I'm told the pump in it is going out, $7k for a new transmission. With the new transmission in it there is no way I could sell it for 7k. So now I am driving it until it fails, if it lasts until I can get a slate, that is my plan, if not I'll have to come up with something else.

You're talking about the BMW electric brakes I assume, eh? Yah, I'm not buying a new BMW just to avoid that. Plus, apparently the electric solenoids like to crack the caliper body under hard brake loads - which is the WORST time for a brake to fail generally.

Thats one of the main reasons I want a Slate. I'm soooo over having to buy special tools, license out special software, and generally get bent over by the manufacturer just to be able to work on the product I bought from them (This is a 'Right to Repair' argument basically). Slate is going the other direction with it all and I LOVE them for it.

 

[Daemoch]

I have some questions and concerns with it, mainly around battery longevity and ownership. Do *I* own a/the battery? If so, I wouldn't want to swap my (potentially) good battery pack with one that is severely degraded.

On the flipside, if I can swap a pack at one of these sites and that pack is now mine....maybe that could be good for people who are concerned with pack longevity. If I don't own the pack, maybe it's battery health is not my problem.

Also also also, is this pack only compatible with one make & model? If so, that makes these essentially obsolete in my eyes. Could be cool for Uber/fleet vehicles, but that would be their own deal I suppose.

These are all good questions I want to know, too. But id be VERY happy to be having them for real with an eye towards creating a new (open) standard that we can then apply across the board for everyone to use.

 

[AZFox]

On the flipside, if I can swap a pack at one of these sites and that pack is now mine....maybe that could be good for people who are concerned with pack longevity. If I don't own the pack, maybe it's battery health is not my problem.

I do this with propane tanks.

Tank getting old? Go to the propane exchange and pick out a better one.

 

[Daemoch]

Great perspective, but, you just described how it is “work-on-able” the same as current ICEs, not more so.

You’re absolutely correct, you can fix those things, I know that side of the industry well. But the barrier to entry is similar, if not higher than with ICEs.

How do you recycle your packs? Just curious

No other (edit: 'modern-ish') EV or ICE (that I'm aware of) has been developed from the ground up as an open platform that specifically targets DIY/ 'the End User'. Want a schematic? here yah go. want the blueprints? here yah go. want to modify the software/code? Here yah go. I cant even get the actual manufacturer's name for most the parts in my Mercedes Benz, nm a blueprint or access to the code running on a chip inside it. My understanding is that I'll be able to get into all of that on a Slate. Thats worth a LOT to me. How much cheaper do you think it would make working on a Slate for a small private shop? How much cheaper will aftermarket development be? Just think about it! This could quickly become the Darling Child of every modding shop on the planet.

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Depends on the pack and how its made and what its made out of. Ive got relations with professional large scale garbage and recycling companies in the area and we work with each other a lot. I do a lot of physical 'skilled' disassembly and testing; basically salvage and repurpose or recertification. Stuff thats truly not useable gets further broken down physically and chemically and salvaged for raw materials. At the end of the day my goal is to avoid having anything go to a dump. I'm obviously not 100% (thats basically impossible) but I'm damn close. Every time I have a need for an input, I look for one of my outputs to fulfill it. If I have an output, I look at what I can expand into that uses it as an input. Sometimes thats just refine+sell the raw material (copper, lead, and gold being obvious examples).

Its the whole mentality thats driving some of the farming trends these days in the midwest - less reliance on costly inputs (seeds+chemicals=$$$$) to maximize your outputs (yield) to generate slim profits and more emphasis on minimal input costs to lower the profitability threshold (and your losses in a bad year). It's the Sustainable Farming mentality; not to be confused with Organic or All Natural farming or any of that 'woo' crap; this is just math. I came from a big farming family so any waste was always viewed as a lost opportunity or a mistake in planning ahead sufficiently.

 

[KevinRS]

You're talking about the BMW electric brakes I assume, eh? Yah, I'm not buying a new BMW just to avoid that. Plus, apparently the electric solenoids like to crack the caliper body under hard brake loads - which is the WORST time for a brake to fail generally.

Thats one of the main reasons I want a Slate. I'm soooo over having to buy special tools, license out special software, and generally get bent over by the manufacturer just to be able to work on the product I bought from them (This is a 'Right to Repair' argument basically). Slate is going the other direction with it all and I LOVE them for it.

Even a Nissan Rogue with a higher trim package now has the rear disc brakes that work that way in the past few years.

 

[Daemoch]

Even a Nissan Rogue with a higher trim package now has the rear disc brakes that work that way in the past few years.

Ah, but did they also have a factory recall for failing?

 

[KevinRS]

Ah, but did they also have a factory recall for failing?

Don't even know at this point, it's my sister who has a rogue, her older one didn't have the hard to service brakes, then after she got the newer one, and wanted to change the brakes, we found that the rears needed a service tool to connect to the computer.