Controller Area Network?

[CustomCar]

As a zero-emission vehicle Slate is exempt from the Federal emissions requirements to use OBD-II and the associated CAN bus. I've seen that California requires the SAE J1962 connector, the connector used by the OBD-II system, for the sake of allowing anyone to read diagnostic codes. California's law only requires the interface to be standardized, and does not mandate the network protocol. As far as I know there is no requirement for Slate to use the 40 year old CAN bus system. Will Slate be using the antiquated CAN bus system, or will they be using a modern controller network? If so, what kind?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

As a zero-emission vehicle Slate is exempt from the Federal emissions requirements to use OBD-II and the associated CAN bus. I've seen that California requires the SAE J1962 connector, the connector used by the OBD-II system, for the sake of allowing anyone to read diagnostic codes. California's law only requires the interface to be standardized, and does not mandate the network protocol. As far as I know there is no requirement for Slate to use the 40 year old CAN bus system. Will Slate be using the antiquated CAN bus system, or will they be using a modern controller network? If so, what kind?

As with your other thread, there is no official word from Slate regarding vehicle control & communication protocols. Ethernet is even older (introduced for commercial use in 1980) and seems to be working okay.

There just might possibly be an answer to your question once (if?) the Slate makes it to production. Until then, and until there's some official word from Slate on the matter, everything is speculation.

 

[IanNubbit]

As a zero-emission vehicle Slate is exempt from the Federal emissions requirements to use OBD-II and the associated CAN bus. I've seen that California requires the SAE J1962 connector, the connector used by the OBD-II system, for the sake of allowing anyone to read diagnostic codes. California's law only requires the interface to be standardized, and does not mandate the network protocol. As far as I know there is no requirement for Slate to use the 40 year old CAN bus system. Will Slate be using the antiquated CAN bus system, or will they be using a modern controller network? If so, what kind?

They have said in an interview they will be using can-bus, nothing antiquated about it, EVERY vehicle on the road uses it. Ethernet is only just now finding its way into vehicle. Consumer automobiles tend to always use reliable trusted networks/infrastructure to operate for the safety of eveyone. Sure could use some wild fancy new communication standard to control something that has a bunch of benefits, but if it fails, good luck explaining that to investors, owners, and governments

 

[Tom Sawyer]

They have said in an interview they will be using can-bus, nothing antiquated about it, EVERY vehicle on the road uses it. Ethernet is only just now finding its way into vehicle. Consumer automobiles tend to always use reliable trusted networks/infrastructure to operate for the safety of eveyone. Sure could use some wild fancy new communication standard to control something that has a bunch of benefits, but if it fails, good luck explaining that to investors, owners, and governments

Do you have a link to this?

 

[IanNubbit]

Do you have a link to this?

At 16:50 she’s starts talking about it

 

[CustomCar]

They have said in an interview they will be using can-bus, nothing antiquated about it, EVERY vehicle on the road uses it. Ethernet is only just now finding its way into vehicle. Consumer automobiles tend to always use reliable trusted networks/infrastructure to operate for the safety of eveyone. Sure could use some wild fancy new communication standard to control something that has a bunch of benefits, but if it fails, good luck explaining that to investors, owners, and governments

Some Teslas don't use CAN bus, it's not used on "EVERY vehicle on the road".

The automation world (such as the robots and machines used in manufacturing vehicles) moved away from serial communication systems (such RS-232, Profibus, and CAN bus) about 20 years ago. In automotive terms it's certainly old enough to be called "classic" if not "antique".
The claim that CAN bus is "for the safety of everyone" doesn't make sense considering serial communication is too slow and susceptible to interference to be used at all in modern safety circuits. Investors, owners, and governments aren't going to allow a robot using serial communication to be used, when it can't meet basic safety requirements.
Ethernet is also serial, and is too slow to be used in automation, so it was never really adopted for this use. You can find ethernet used for applications where speed isn't critical, such as displays and data collection, because it's the standard used in IT systems and networks.
High-speed communication protocols such as EtherCAT, Ethernet/IP, and Profinet (which all use standard ethernet cables) are widely used in modern automation. These aren't wild fancy new communication standards, they are industry standard for the very factories that are building vehicles today. They are reliable, safe, and tested.

Thank you for verifying that they will be using CAN bus. Disappointing, as that will certainly limit the capability of integrating systems into the vehicle.

 

[IanNubbit]

Some Teslas don't use CAN bus, it's not used on "EVERY vehicle on the road".

The automation world (such as the robots and machines used in manufacturing vehicles) moved away from serial communication systems (such RS-232, Profibus, and CAN bus) about 20 years ago. In automotive terms it's certainly old enough to be called "classic" if not "antique".
The claim that CAN bus is "for the safety of everyone" doesn't make sense considering serial communication is too slow and susceptible to interference to be used at all in modern safety circuits. Investors, owners, and governments aren't going to allow a robot using serial communication to be used, when it can't meet basic safety requirements.
Ethernet is also serial, and is too slow to be used in automation, so it was never really adopted for this use. You can find ethernet used for applications where speed isn't critical, such as displays and data collection, because it's the standard used in IT systems and networks.
High-speed communication protocols such as EtherCAT, Ethernet/IP, and Profinet (which all use standard ethernet cables) are widely used in modern automation. These aren't wild fancy new communication standards, they are industry standard for the very factories that are building vehicles today. They are reliable, safe, and tested.

Thank you for verifying that they will be using CAN bus. Disappointing, as that will certainly limit the capability of integrating systems into the vehicle.

What Tesla doesn’t use Can, what do they use? I also find it weird that the simplest most bare bones vehicle being made wont have a radical and new design to communication network is s surprise to you? The difference between industrial machinery and automobiles is industrial machines don’t carry humans at 70 mph around other 6k lbs machines carrying humans at 70mph

 

[ElectricShitbox]

I can't stop laughing at the idea of industrial machinery using the latest technology. Windows NT must still be the bleeding edge of technology.

 

[IanNubbit]

I can't stop laughing at the idea of industrial machinery using the latest technology. Windows NT must still be the bleeding edge of technology.

Yeah wait a second, totally true! Maybe the hardware is new tech, but everything I’ve ever seen or heard if is crazy old school in software/comms

 

[Johnologue]

I was researching this subject a while back, and wasn't entirely sure what Slate's architecture actually was. I probably could have found the interview, but I got caught up researching the new stuff like zonal architecture...and cloud. 😬

Thank you for verifying that they will be using CAN bus. Disappointing, as that will certainly limit the capability of integrating systems into the vehicle.

I actually think it's one of the brilliant things about the Slate. There are minimal "integrated systems". It's compartmentalized.

That means there's no elevated manufacturer privilege for things like infotainment that would get in the way of modding. It also makes it inherently more reliable.

Slate's approach means there will never be a problem with your radio that keeps you from getting to work on time. Or braking.

Ford is putting ADAS on the same computer as media software...

 

[IanNubbit]

I was researching this subject a while back, and wasn't entirely sure what Slate's architecture actually was. I probably could have found the interview, but I got caught up researching the new stuff like zonal architecture...and cloud. 😬



I actually think it's one of the brilliant things about the Slate. There are minimal "integrated systems". It's compartmentalized.

That means there's no elevated manufacturer privilege for things like infotainment that would get in the way of modding. It also makes it inherently more reliable.

Slate's approach means there will never be a problem with your radio that keeps you from getting to work on time. Or braking.

Ford is putting ADAS on the same computer as media software...

Lots of people underestimate how over-integrated modern cars are these days. Had a Jeep 4xE in a while back because CEL was on and could not use Electric mode

Long story short, the door connector had a bent pin for the secondary door latch (the PCM sensor not the Body sensor) So door would say it’s shut to the driver, but showed the PCM it was open, which would then engage the auto-park feature making the vehicle unable to drive. After trying 3 times it would let you drive. Enough if these cycles, a code is tripped for the transmission stating “unexpected park condition” set, which then sets the CEL, which then disables Electric drive.

So a single pin in the door connector barely got bent not properly putting the door connector back in after having the doors off (Jeep used a terrible connector for a “removable” connector) caused the vehicle to not drive, then set a CEL, then disable electric drive. It’s a mess these days

 

[CustomCar]

I can't stop laughing at the idea of industrial machinery using the latest technology. Windows NT must still be the bleeding edge of technology.

Funny story: On of our robot suppliers had to rush a new model of robot controller to market. Their previous robot controller was Windows CE based. Since the newer Microsoft offerings rely heavily on cloud services and it's generally unwise to put robots on the internet, their new robot controller is Linux based. It sounds like they encountered some delays working with that new operating system, so the controller release was pushed back several times. It almost got to the point where they didn't have a robot controller available because they couldn't sell Windows CE anymore, and the new controller wasn't ready yet.
But yes, industrial machinery has a longer lifespan than most cars. I believe part of that is due to the fact that you can maintain and upgrade industrial machines, including the electronics, to keep them useful.
I'd love to be able to upgrade a modern car the way you could with old cars, or the way you can with industrial machines.

 

[CustomCar]

I was researching this subject a while back, and wasn't entirely sure what Slate's architecture actually was. I probably could have found the interview, but I got caught up researching the new stuff like zonal architecture...and cloud. 😬



I actually think it's one of the brilliant things about the Slate. There are minimal "integrated systems". It's compartmentalized.

That means there's no elevated manufacturer privilege for things like infotainment that would get in the way of modding. It also makes it inherently more reliable.

Slate's approach means there will never be a problem with your radio that keeps you from getting to work on time. Or braking.

Ford is putting ADAS on the same computer as media software...

I suspect Ford putting ADAS on the same system as media software is because the CAN bus can't handle ADAS.

As as a system integrator, I hate your usage of "integrated systems" in this context. These aren't integrated systems, these are systems that don't integrate and that's the problem.

 

[IanNubbit]

I suspect Ford putting ADAS on the same system as media software is because the CAN bus can't handle ADAS.

As as a system integrator, I hate your usage of "integrated systems" in this context. These aren't integrated systems, these are systems that don't integrate and that's the problem.

ADAS runs on Can for stellantis. But the camera systems are tightly integrated with 360 camera so Stellantis uses another module on top of ADAS (on some architectures) called centeal vision processing module. This is the module that takes all visual inputs in, then routes them to their respective systems as needed (Infotainment, ADAS, Telematics, etc)

 

[CustomCar]

ADAS runs on Can for stellantis. But the camera systems are tightly integrated with 360 camera so Stellantis uses another module on top of ADAS (on some architectures) called centeal vision processing module. This is the module that takes all visual inputs in, then routes them to their respective systems as needed (Infotainment, ADAS, Telematics, etc)

Good to know. It seems like CAN may be more robust than I'm giving it credit for.

You seem like the person to ask: We've had mandatory back up cameras on the rear of our vehicles for awhile now. Why haven't we seen these cameras used as a rear-facing dashcam?
It seems like it would be super easy to integrate the existing camera with the existing media storge and collision sensors, and have a functional dashcam. I've always believed it was because those are 3 separate systems, and they don't interface well with each other, but you seem to indicate that's not the case. I've not even seen aftermarket options to use the existing rear camera with a 3rd party recording device.
It's frustrating that we're getting mandatory driver-facing cameras which can disable our vehicles based on driver behavior, and we still don't have OEM dashcams.