Blank slate narrative is a mistake, and that needs to change

[beatle]

Compute FEA can reduce the number of times you need to "re-crash" a vehicle, but it doesn't eliminate it entirely for passenger cars. Manufacturers already crash way fewer vehicles now than they used to thanks to FEA. Cars are also much, much safer now and can be built to much tighter tolerances to get the job done.

There are indeed FEA "exceptions" for heavy machinery and buses that can be prohibitively expensive and dangerous to crash. But really, crashing a few Mavericks isn't what's stopping Ford from making more variations anyway. Engineering costs are overwhelmingly more expensive in the total R&D costs for a vehicle. We're talking crashing being low single digits as a percentage of the total.

Manuals aren't dead because they need to be retested. They would otherwise mostly inherit the certification of the heavier automatic test and not need to be "re-crashed." They are less efficient than automatics, and increasingly stringent emissions and mpg requirements mean they no longer pass muster. Watch how quickly an automatic cycles through the gears to get to the one that pollutes the least and consumes the least amount of fuel. I drove a new Supra a few years ago with the ZF8 and the stock shifting behavior made it seem like the car wanted to constantly lug its engine. It was ridiculous. With a manual, you're more likely to rev it out a bit more which contributes to worse mpg and emissions, not to mention that you also now have fewer ratios. with a manual - sometimes a lot fewer. Of course rowing your own is way more fun though.

AEB and ADAS systems are also more difficult to calibrate with a manual. In some cases the manual version doesn't even get ADAS. My 6 speed 2025 Miata, for example, doesn't get radar cruise control, but if I had gotten the automatic, I'd have radar CC.

 

[cadblu]

Here are a couple of screen shots from early crash testing on Slate prototypes. I'll be very interested to see how well it rates with frontal, side, offset, and rollover testing. Judging from the short wheelbase and high stance, methinks the rollover tests may not achieve a 5-star rating. Installing the roll-bar with the fast back SUV topper is the first mod I will do!

But what do I know? I'm just a former crash test dummy!

 

[cadblu]

On second thought, given the heavy battery (either the std. or ER version) will be a key factor in maintaining a low CG. Rollover scores may actually be quite impressive.

 

[AZFox]

Every forum has at least one guy who doesn't want to be wrong, has to be right, and argues their point of view ad nauseam. I get it - I've been there myself and still get caught up in those dynamics.

No doubt that's true, but you're missing an important piece of information.

To me the way to be Most Right is by actively recognizing and admitting when you're wrong and making a correction.

If I'm wrong,
It won't be for long.
When a correction's in sight,
I'll become right.​

It turns out maximizing being right is pretty simple. Notice I didn't say "easy".

 

[AL-Derby]

There is a new topic on this forum about lack of AM/FM radio as a critical safety problem. I don't really have an opinion on that particular topic, but this is a recurring pattern. People follow "blank slate" narrative and write a lot of negative opinions: this car doesn't have this, and that, and so on.

In fact, this is false narrative. Slate have all of that: radio, and speakers, and electric windows, and many many more. It's just optional equipment, if you don't want this, you don't have to pay for it. You see, how different is this approach?

Slate team avoids the word "option" at all cost. They stick to "less is more" narrative. Recent Jay Leno episode is a prime example of that. In my opinion this was pretty close to a PR disaster. Leno gave them soft ball questions, like where are the speaker. Slate spokerpesones answered them in a way, which actually amplified this negativity: oh, you can bring your Bluetooth speaker. What followed was hilarious. Leno was asking "it surely doesn't have climat control and something and something" and they had to defend themself against the most friendly host they can ever have. On safety they answered on "oh no, we had to include this because of regulations". If you need to explain to Jay Leno, that your car have basic safety equipment, you really really have a problem.

They never really explained how Slate truck actually HAS all the practical things, just as an option. They presented the car as it was basic and unable to upgrade. Yes, they spent a lot of time on wrapping and other niceties, but that wasn't a Leno concern! I would like to see data on this, but I believe this high profile marketing stunt didn't actually help strengthen Slate image.

This may hurt Slate. People do need to understand how they can have radio, speakers and electric windows. What was a marginal voice at first, seems to be a major source of criticism now.

I would like to know your opinion on that. And I hope Slate team is reading.

I was disappointed with the Jay video. It was totally scripted and not an honest opinion that I was looking forward to seeing. It might be beneficial to Slate to offer the extras at a discount if purchased at time of delivery. I have no doubt that there will be a hefty markup on those adders and it wouldn’t hurt to offer a discount at delivery.

 

[ZuliMuli]

Slate team avoids the word "option" at all cost. They stick to "less is more" narrative. Recent Jay Leno episode is a prime example of that. In my opinion this was pretty close to a PR disaster. Leno gave them soft ball questions, like where are the speaker. Slate spokerpesones answered them in a way, which actually amplified this negativity: oh, you can bring your Bluetooth speaker. What followed was hilarious. Leno was asking "it surely doesn't have climat control and something and something" and they had to defend themself against the most friendly host they can ever have. On safety they answered on "oh no, we had to include this because of regulations". If you need to explain to Jay Leno, that your car have basic safety equipment, you really really have a problem.

I think you're being a little harsh. The comments are pretty positive with people seeming to respond well to what was said. I personally agree that it could have gone better but I also feel that the first Slate owners will be the more resoursful ones that dig for the info and will use and expand the university for more and more people.

 

[Paul]

There is a new topic on this forum about lack of AM/FM radio as a critical safety problem. I don't really have an opinion on that particular topic, but this is a recurring pattern. People follow "blank slate" narrative and write a lot of negative opinions: this car doesn't have this, and that, and so on.

In fact, this is false narrative. Slate have all of that: radio, and speakers, and electric windows, and many many more. It's just optional equipment, if you don't want this, you don't have to pay for it. You see, how different is this approach?

Slate team avoids the word "option" at all cost. They stick to "less is more" narrative. Recent Jay Leno episode is a prime example of that. In my opinion this was pretty close to a PR disaster. Leno gave them soft ball questions, like where are the speaker. Slate spokerpesones answered them in a way, which actually amplified this negativity: oh, you can bring your Bluetooth speaker. What followed was hilarious. Leno was asking "it surely doesn't have climat control and something and something" and they had to defend themself against the most friendly host they can ever have. On safety they answered on "oh no, we had to include this because of regulations". If you need to explain to Jay Leno, that your car have basic safety equipment, you really really have a problem.

They never really explained how Slate truck actually HAS all the practical things, just as an option. They presented the car as it was basic and unable to upgrade. Yes, they spent a lot of time on wrapping and other niceties, but that wasn't a Leno concern! I would like to see data on this, but I believe this high profile marketing stunt didn't actually help strengthen Slate image.

This may hurt Slate. People do need to understand how they can have radio, speakers and electric windows. What was a marginal voice at first, seems to be a major source of criticism now.

I would like to know your opinion on that. And I hope Slate team is reading.

There is a big segment who wants "fully loaded" and then they get their monthly payment that approaches home mortgage for a $70k truck and that is the expectation of buying a new truck. So buying a blank slate kind of makes their head explode. It's always hard to break through current expectations. Particularly since we don't know how the story will actually be written. If you have a truck that doesn't have a radio and You have some early adopters who really want to improvise and create things for a Blank Slate and an established third-party market, like crutchfield, who is going to know that people want a radio - I'm pretty optimistic that the solutions are going to start coming out from everywhere once these things are in the hands of creators. The third-party market doesn't exist for cars with proprietary head units because there is no market. It's kind of like people not reading comments on social media posts. People just see a new car and then make demands based on what they know without understanding anything about it.

 

[E90400K]

Compute FEA can reduce the number of times you need to "re-crash" a vehicle, but it doesn't eliminate it entirely for passenger cars. Manufacturers already crash way fewer vehicles now than they used to thanks to FEA. Cars are also much, much safer now and can be built to much tighter tolerances to get the job done.

There are indeed FEA "exceptions" for heavy machinery and buses that can be prohibitively expensive and dangerous to crash. But really, crashing a few Mavericks isn't what's stopping Ford from making more variations anyway. Engineering costs are overwhelmingly more expensive in the total R&D costs for a vehicle. We're talking crashing being low single digits as a percentage of the total.

Manuals aren't dead because they need to be retested. They would otherwise mostly inherit the certification of the heavier automatic test and not need to be "re-crashed." They are less efficient than automatics, and increasingly stringent emissions and mpg requirements mean they no longer pass muster. Watch how quickly an automatic cycles through the gears to get to the one that pollutes the least and consumes the least amount of fuel. I drove a new Supra a few years ago with the ZF8 and the stock shifting behavior made it seem like the car wanted to constantly lug its engine. It was ridiculous. With a manual, you're more likely to rev it out a bit more which contributes to worse mpg and emissions, not to mention that you also now have fewer ratios. with a manual - sometimes a lot fewer. Of course rowing your own is way more fun though.

AEB and ADAS systems are also more difficult to calibrate with a manual. In some cases the manual version doesn't even get ADAS. My 6 speed 2025 Miata, for example, doesn't get radar cruise control, but if I had gotten the automatic, I'd have radar CC.

I'll confess that most of my input on this topic is from a lengthy and in-depth Car and Driver article I read sometime in the late 1990's, so my knowledge is probably outdated somewhat too - LOL. That article stated each drivetrain configuration had to be crash tested and those testing requirements is what has led to less model diversification.

To catch up, yesterday I did a "light" review of the FMVSS (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards) regs and it seems that the process now is, using "reasonable care", manufacturers self-certify that their products conform to FMVSS. So indeed, manufacturers can use computer crash modeling to form a basis of compliance with the FMVSS. Of course, good engineering practice will use real crash tests to validate the computer simulation models. How in-depth the actual crash tests are executed to validate the modeling is not answerable as each manufacturer uses its own criteria for validation. "Reasonable care" is a legal catchall, so there is inherent risk in not performing actual crash tests to collect the data. Perhaps while the testing methodology has changed with these modern times, the legal implications haven't; possibly, the liability is now worse(?).

I really do not adhere to the idea manual transmissions are being dropped in favor of automatics because they are (materially) less fuel efficient. One can review the EPA MPG data and see that in the (rare) case where a vehicle model is sold with both a manual and automatic transmission option there is at most a 1 to 2 MPG difference. For example:

I do agree with you, automatics are proliferating (IMO) because of consumer preference mostly in favor of phone use (IMO). Consumers no longer want to be burdened with shifting nor paying attention to the road. ADAS has proliferated (in arears) in an effort to curtail accidents caused by distracted driving. Manual transmissions just do not interface well with ADAS. Sadly, ADAS will become mandated even more than it is already. Ironic, because manufacturers insist on the Tesla interior design meme, which induces distracted driving (IMO).

I excitingly commend Slate for bucking that trend. And the best "manual transmissions" are those (single-speed ones) found in EVs.

 

[Turkey Trot]

I’ve had every damn option, accessory and gizwicky known to mankind on everything drivable or with an ON/OFF switch. I am soooo ready for simple, dumbed down, reliable and repairable products. I am no troglodyte and there are many of me out there. I can afford the most expensive washer/dryer there is but opt for Speed Queen. Simple, no frills and serviceable and mostly made in US. This will be my last post as I too am tired of the posters whining about what the Slate doesn’t have. I intend to rejoin you all when Slate begins delivering and we can share helpful info.

I'm in the same boat here. In fact, the Slate as a general form factory is not ideal for me but I am still heavily considering it in the SUV package. I really could use a 4 door hatchback/SUV. I am cross shopping a Slate with a Prius currently.

I also wanted a Rivian R2, but they don't have mechanical door handles. Major putoff for me. Price is not really a factor, either. My budget goes above the 50K range. I want as few electric motors powering things as possible.

Watching the Engineering Explained breakdown of his issues with his 100K Lucid Air encompasses my entire view on the issues with the car market. I don't want to have any issues with infotainment, software, etc. I don't want smart anything.

The beauty of EVs is that their drivetrain is so dead simple. But for some reason no one makes a simple vehicle to match. I want base safety features, a sound system totally decoupled from the rest of the car, integrated nothingness.

I love the idea of a slate, and I get why they made it a pickup. I still may sacrifice the inconveniency of daily loading kids into a two door SUV out of pure spite for the rest of the EV market.

 

[E90400K]

I was disappointed with the Jay video. It was totally scripted and not an honest opinion that I was looking forward to seeing. It might be beneficial to Slate to offer the extras at a discount if purchased at time of delivery. I have no doubt that there will be a hefty markup on those adders and it wouldn’t hurt to offer a discount at delivery.

Agree. Go review the Leno review of the Scout; nearly identical script.

 

[AZFox]

The beauty of EVs is that their drivetrain is so dead simple. But for some reason no one makes a simple vehicle to match.

You would think that would have happened, but no.

The system that determines what vehicles are available keeps simple, compact, fuel-efficient vehicles out reach.

A Suzuki Jimny (Wikipedia page), which costs half as much as a Jeep, would be awesome to have!

Here's 2023 TopSpeed article about why Jimnies aren't available in the U.S.:
The Real Reason Why We Can’t Have The Suzuki Jimny In the U.S.

 

[E90400K]

You would think that would have happened, but no.

The system that determines what vehicles are available keeps simple, compact, fuel-efficient vehicles out reach.

A Suzuki Jimny (Wikipedia page), which costs half as much as a Jeep, would be awesome to have!

Here's 2023 TopSpeed article about why Jimnies aren't available in the U.S.:
The Real Reason Why We Can’t Have The Suzuki Jimny In the U.S.

It's predecessor the Samurai (Suzuki of the 1980's), sucked. All at the time the Suzuki GSXR 750 was becoming a sportbike icon.

 

[KevinRS]

Automatic transmissions are not proliferating due to phone use. They have been on a downward trend ever since automatics were introduced. Manuals actually used to be the better fuel economy option, due to losses in the torque converter mainly. A manual shifted at the right times had less loss. Now with more gears and lockup torque converters, automatics win, and CVTs are cutting into automatic numbers.
I found some charts at https://www.theautopian.com/heres-e...smissions-became-more-efficient-than-manuals/ that show production share of different transmission types, manuals were a shrinking share long before cell phones became more than an expensive novelty.

 

[AZFox]

Automatic transmissions are not proliferating due to phone use.

This.

It's not the only contributor, but IMHO the most influential one.

 

[KevinRS]

This.

It's not the only contributor, but IMHO the most influential one.

Even in 1980, MT were only around 30% of cars, and just over 50% of trucks. both dropped under 25% by the early 90s, by 2000 both were around 10%
The Iphone wasn't released until 2007.

This is the chart from that article.
I really don't think holding a phone to do something on it while driving happened a whole lot until touchscreens became really prevalent, which was for the most part led off by the Iphone and contemporary phones,