Toyota to follow Ford in $30k small truck segment

[E90400K]

This^

I can’t stress enough how much value there is in simplicity. Ford and Toyota have both abandoned the simplicity that won them loyalty. My Grandfather drove a mid 80’s Toyota cargo van that had only enough power, A/C and crank windows. We routinely walked past my Grandma’s Lexus to run errands in the van.

I really don't see how EV claim to be simpler. Have you ever seen the guts of the cooling system and charging system in say, a Mustang Mach E, the stuff under the frunk panels? It looks as complicated as my Ford EcoBoost turbo Bronco. Both ICEV and EV have sensors and computer modules that help diagnose problems. Batteries have a lot of parts in them as does the battery and EV drive unit controller hardware.

I will give the Slate an advantage in simplicity because it is BYOD vs. a native Infotainment system, but there is still a shitload of software in the Slate as there is in an ICE to make the vehicle actually run.

 

[AZFox]

EVs can break, ask any Tesla or Mach E owner.

Regardless of that, simpler is better.

An ICE/EV hybrid is more complex than just an ICE.

By "simpler is better" I mean the slate won't require the expense and hassle of maintaining and repairing a lot of extra moving parts.

The things that break on Tesla and Ford EVs are not breaking because they are EVs. They're things that a Slate Truck won't have!

Lower maintenance cost (and hassle), lower cost-of-ownership, etc. We've discussed it thoroughly before, so if you don't understand the thought process by now I don't think more discussion will help.

 

[AZFox]

I really don't see how EV claim to be simpler.

Far Fewer Moving Parts

It's easy to comprehend.

 

[KevinRS]

Far Fewer Moving Parts

It's easy to comprehend.

Exactly, and Slate appears to be something EVs were supposed to be from the start.

The non-refundable tax credit just meant you needed at least 75k of taxable income if you've got nothing but the standard deduction, no retirement, etc, to even be able to get the full amount, so automakers went for the luxury end of the market, added all the bells and whistles, and made them testbeds for things like self driving features.
Many manufacturers have promised an entry level vehicle, but either just dropped it, or produced only limited quantities and made them hard to get or lease only, or now Tesla is turning them into robotaxis instead.

 

[sodamo]

I just don't understand this thought process. It's a truck, it has 4 wheels and a steering wheel, it hauls and tows stuff, it goes places. What does drivetrain architecture have to do with it?

This truck wouldn’t get my interest otherwise. Don’t think I’m the only one.

 

[E90400K]

Regardless of that, simpler is better.

An ICE/EV hybrid is more complex than just an ICE.

By "simpler is better" I mean the slate won't require the expense and hassle of maintaining and repairing a lot of extra moving parts.

The things that break on Tesla and Ford EVs are not breaking because they are EVs. They're things that a Slate Truck won't have!

Lower maintenance cost (and hassle), lower cost-of-ownership, etc. We've discussed it thoroughly before, so if you don't understand the thought process by now I don't think more discussion will help.

Yeah, no one here has really made the case that ICEV moving parts are less reliable than EV non-moving parts (other than they expand and contract from heat cycling). The Mach E had a TSB and recall on the HVBJB. It breaks and the car is bricked. All EV have a HVBJB.

Yup, ICEV do require a bit more periodic maintenance, but its not much. And its all DIY'able items. We all potential Slate owners like DIY, right?

 

[E90400K]

This truck wouldn’t get my interest otherwise. Don’t think I’m the only one.

Maybe you aren't, but the Market as a whole, may be.

 

[Dorbiman]

I just don't understand this thought process. It's a truck, it has 4 wheels and a steering wheel, it hauls and tows stuff, it goes places. What does drivetrain architecture have to do with it?

Oh man, that's quite the sentiment. You know what else has 4 wheels, a steering wheel, hauls and tows stuff? A Ram 2500 with a 6.7L Cummins. I wouldn't put that in the same category as a 90s Tacoma, nor would I put the Slate Truck in the same category.

The drivetrain architecture has tons to do with it. On top of it all, some of us want an EV. I'm unsure why that's a hard thing to understand. EVs are awesome. I hate going to the gas station. I just spent $90 filling up my Silverado. I cannot wait for the Slate Truck so I never have to do that again! haha

 

[AZFox]

Yeah, no one here has really made the case that ICEV moving parts are less reliable than EV non-moving parts (other than they expand and contract from heat cycling).

You're (intentionally?) missing the point. Individual parts may be equally reliable, but the ICEV has WAY more of them.

Did a quick search for numbers. Looks like an EV has 20-25 moving parts where an ICEV has around 2,000. Big difference!

Important: The ICEV requires maintenance the EV doesn't require.

​

"With an EV, you don't have as many parts to replace on a regular basis, because there just aren't as many moving parts as in a gasoline-powered car," says Gabe Shenhar, associate director of CR's auto test program. "The oil changes and engine tuneups we all know from gas cars are rendered obsolete by the EV's relative simplicity."​

Source:

2020 Consumer Reports article: Pay Less for Vehicle Maintenance With an EV​

CR research shows that EVs cost less to maintain than gasoline-powered vehicles​

 

[E90400K]

You're (intentionally?) missing the point. Individual parts may be equally reliable, but the ICEV has WAY more of them.

Did a quick search for numbers. Looks like an EV has 20-25 moving parts where an ICEV has around 2,000. Big difference!

Important: The ICEV requires maintenance the EV doesn't require.

​

"With an EV, you don't have as many parts to replace on a regular basis, because there just aren't as many moving parts as in a gasoline-powered car," says Gabe Shenhar, associate director of CR's auto test program. "The oil changes and engine tuneups we all know from gas cars are rendered obsolete by the EV's relative simplicity."​

Source:

2020 Consumer Reports article: Pay Less for Vehicle Maintenance With an EV​

CR research shows that EVs cost less to maintain than gasoline-powered vehicles​

Again, moving parts doesn't necessarily equate to lower reliability.
I never made an argument about ICEV maintenance cost being equivalent to EV, in fact I stated my research qouting Forbes indicates the cost difference in maintenance between ICEV and EV is just 4-cents per-mile. 10 cents vs. 6 cents. I personally have validated the 10 cent number with my ICEV.

Some portion of the market is going to cross shop the Slate with the ICEV Toyota, Nissan, Ford, and Chevrolet products.

 

[E90400K]

Oh man, that's quite the sentiment. You know what else has 4 wheels, a steering wheel, hauls and tows stuff? A Ram 2500 with a 6.7L Cummins. I wouldn't put that in the same category as a 90s Tacoma, nor would I put the Slate Truck in the same category.

The drivetrain architecture has tons to do with it. On top of it all, some of us want an EV. I'm unsure why that's a hard thing to understand. EVs are awesome. I hate going to the gas station. I just spent $90 filling up my Silverado. I cannot wait for the Slate Truck so I never have to do that again! haha

A RAM is a $80K full-size truck. A 2025 Nissan Frontier S King Cab, 2WD, 6-foot bed can be bought for under $30K. It hauls 1,900 pounds and tows 7,500 pounds. It's just 35" longer than a Slate.

 

[Dorbiman]

Sounds like a good deal, if you want to deal with a Nissan dealership, want a 4 door pickup, and want to buy gasoline

 

[AZFox]

Again, moving parts doesn't necessarily equate to lower reliability.

Of course it does. Don't be ridiculous.

If the Anvil of Obviousness hasn't bonked you yet, you must be wearing a helmet.

My Mechanical Buddy will explain it to you (again).

Yes, more moving parts in an internal combustion engine vehicle (ICEV) generally equate to lower reliability compared to electric vehicles (EVs), due to the increased complexity, higher potential for mechanical failure, and greater maintenance demands. This principle is rooted in engineering and systems reliability theory: as the number of components in a system increases, so does the probability of failure, assuming each component has a non-zero chance of malfunctioning.​

​

In the case of ICEVs, the engine and drivetrain contain hundreds to over two thousand moving parts, including pistons, valves, camshafts, crankshafts, fuel injectors, exhaust systems, timing belts, and complex transmissions.​

​

Each of these components is subject to wear, thermal stress, friction, and the need for lubrication, all of which contribute to degradation over time.​

Oh look. My bag of Troll Food just ran out.

 

[Mac-Tyson]

Regardless of that, simpler is better.

An ICE/EV hybrid is more complex than just an ICE.

By "simpler is better" I mean the slate won't require the expense and hassle of maintaining and repairing a lot of extra moving parts.

The things that break on Tesla and Ford EVs are not breaking because they are EVs. They're things that a Slate Truck won't have!

Lower maintenance cost (and hassle), lower cost-of-ownership, etc. We've discussed it thoroughly before, so if you don't understand the thought process by now I don't think more discussion will help.

Not to mention any repairs that Slate does need is either DIY friendly or designed with easy serviceability in mind. Which lowers maintenance costs even more.

 

[KevinRS]

Just a 4 cent difference, out of 10, is a 40% difference, I'm wondering how much of that 6 cents per mile is in tires, and what the remaining breaks down to.
lets see, at 100,000 miles, 10 cents per mile is $10,000 in maintenance, compared to $6,000 for the EV.
Just thinking how my versa probably needs a transmission now at $7000 at 100k miles, after spending at least $5500 in that time on service, I'm realizing I'm missing some records.