Aptera-style solar panels in SUV option.

[Benjamin Nead]

I've been posting lots of stuff since getting here last week about integrating conventional flat aluminum-framed glass PV panels onto the Slate: being able to deploy and mate to batteries you also can carry around in the vehicle beyond the main traction one.

That would not be the same as an Aptera style system, where the PV would be integrated into the vehicle's panels themselves and essentially be "always on," in such a way as the vehicle would be charging the traction battery even while moving.

Since I'm kind of "solar nut," I naturally like both ideas.

The former would be easier for the DIY tinkerer to implement and have practical applications for things like providing emergency power to a small building during an extended grid outage. Or what you want to stage an outdoor amplified music concert where suitable electricity is otherwise unavailable.

The latter would require a very involved integration path into the vehicle's electrical and charging systems. Further, it's assumed that panel-to-vehicle integration would have to be more comprehensive and difficult: not a typical DIY project or budget.

Fortunately, another entity has already devised a plastic-paneled EV with integrated solar. The Sono Sion was one of those "almost made it" EV startup projects that faded away rather quickly in early 2023. I know from following them closely towards the end that they are willing to sell the patents to anyone who is interested.

The below video (I also shared this with Slate, but haven't heard back from them) was made about 6 months before Sono went under, providing a lot of details on how to design an integrated "always on" solar system into a boxy vehicle with plastic panels . . .

 

[cvollers]

I've been posting lots of stuff since getting here last week about integrating conventional flat aluminum-framed glass PV panels onto the Slate: being able to deploy and mate to batteries you also can carry around in the vehicle beyond the main traction one.

That would not be the same as an Aptera style system, where the PV would be integrated into the vehicle's panels themselves and essentially be "always on," in such a way as the vehicle would be charging the traction battery even while moving.

Since I'm kind of "solar nut," I naturally like both ideas.

The former would be easier for the DIY tinkerer to implement and have practical applications for things like providing emergency power to a small building during an extended grid outage. Or what you want to stage an outdoor amplified music concert where suitable electricity is otherwise unavailable.

The latter would require a very involved integration path into the vehicle's electrical and charging systems. Further, it's assumed that panel-to-vehicle integration would have to be more comprehensive and difficult: not a typical DIY project or budget.

Fortunately, another entity has already devised a plastic-paneled EV with integrated solar. The Sono Sion was one of those "almost made it" EV startup projects that faded away rather quickly in early 2023. I know from following them closely towards the end that they are willing to sell the patents to anyone who is interested.

The below video (I also shared this with Slate, but haven't heard back from them) was made about 6 months before Sono went under, providing a lot of details on how to design an integrated "always on" solar system into a boxy vehicle with plastic panels . . .

If I bought a vehicle with integrated PV panels I would be instantly/constantly worried that the PV tech would be obsolete in a matter of months. In which case I would probably not make that purchase. I would, however, seriously consider the solar generator approach with easily replaceable panels and as I stated previously, think long and hard about putting the generator and some fixed panels on/in a camping trailer with fixed PV panels on the top of a RTT. In this scenario, the generator can always be charging (when the sun is out), and then charge the traction battery once at camp with additional PV panels deployed on the ground. The Anker Solix F3000 seems like a good candidate for this solution.

The added benefit of the trailer is that it can be used to hold a camping spot while the EV is used to adventure around or head into town for supplies.

 

[Swinefuzz]

The Aptera is a very small, light and sleek EV with a unique transmission gear system, so it's solar panels can provide *most* (all? IDK) of the power it needs. The Aptera is very interesting, but it does not fulfill my needs. The GoSun product literally buries a vehicle under solar panels all day to net only about ~12 miles of range (average conditions, not ideal conditions) which doesn't even come close to powering an average commute (mine is ~35 miles/day). If SA were to immerse solar panels into their body like the Sono Sion, I know it would not net enough power to turn my wheels as much as I need them turned. Solar panels need to be perfectly aimed into the sun to achieve satisfactory absorption and I cannot keep running outside to move my vehicle to achieve such absorption, whether via GoSun or embedded in-body solar panels. Also, it would jack the price of the Slate Truck WAY up. And for what? Plugging in every few days is actually far less work. Also, body panels with solar panels in them would be far more costly to replace post-accident. Also, you can't vinyl wrap solar panels, which is a huge part of Slate Truck's appeal for many dreamers.

The Slate Truck will remain a plug-in.

Someday, solar panel technology will vastly improve and when that is combined with the vastly improved battery technology we're seeing now, we will all eventually be driving cars powered by a single small solar panel like a calculator.

Or nuclear pellets.

 

[cvollers]

The Aptera is a very small, light and sleek EV with a unique transmission gear system, so it's solar panels can provide *most* (all? IDK) of the power it needs. The Aptera is very interesting, but it does not fulfill my needs. The GoSun product literally buries a vehicle under solar panels all day to net only about ~12 miles of range (average conditions, not ideal conditions) which doesn't even come close to powering an average commute (mine is ~35 miles/day). If SA were to immerse solar panels into their body like the Sono Sion, I know it would not net enough power to turn my wheels as much as I need them turned. Solar panels need to be perfectly aimed into the sun to achieve satisfactory absorption and I cannot keep running outside to move my vehicle to achieve such absorption, whether via GoSun or embedded in-body solar panels. Also, it would jack the price of the Slate Truck WAY up. And for what? Plugging in every few days is actually far less work. Also, body panels with solar panels in them would be far more costly to replace post-accident. Also, you can't vinyl wrap solar panels, which is a huge part of Slate Truck's appeal for many dreamers.

The Slate Truck will remain a plug-in.

Someday, solar panel technology will vastly improve and when that is combined with the vastly improved battery technology we're seeing now, we will all eventually be driving cars powered by a single small solar panel like a calculator.

Or nuclear pellets.

I'd like a Mr. Fusion thank you very much.

 

[sodamo]

The integrated PV approach definitely risks obsolescence, then again, my House panels already are, but still function admirably.

I’d even be happy with a partial solution. roof mounted panels I can integrate into the 12vdc system and charge a battery similiar to the Apex 300 that Ican recharge the Slate

 

[Benjamin Nead]

Valid points made by both you and cvollers.

The Aptera, in particular, is one I've kept my eye on since around 2009. I remember back then that they were going to make solar an option. But then they realized that their aerodynamic platform is what makes it so desirable for applying solar to it in the first place, and they went full speed ahead making sure that all their vehicles would be so equipped. Estimates are now in the 10 mile per kiloWatt hour (kWh) range, which is impressive. If you live in a sunny climate like mine (southern Arizona,) it's claimed that you could park an Aptera outside through most of the year and get as much as 40 miles per day that way.

The first mock-up of the Sono from around 2016 didn't really impress me. It looked basically like an adapted conventional EV that some kids had randomly pasted thin film panel pieces onto. It was only later, when they were finally getting to the point of molding the PV into plastic panels, that I began to appreciate what they were doing. They were aware of the aerodynamic challenges and how that would compare to the Aptera. Still, they estimated that their vehicle, parked and exposed to constant sunlight, would yield around 20 miles per day. Not shabby. PV efficiency and the general amount of it available on either car was comparable. The Aptera was always going to have the edge, though, because of the superior aerodynamics.

It's easy to view either of these solar EVs with too much of an absolutist outlook. If I park my i-MiEV outside under perfect sunshine, I don't get any extra range that way at all. But if I park a Sono outside on a sorta-cloudy day, or under a tree with partial shading and I still manage to get 10 miles of added range, that's 10 miles of carbon-free energy that magically appeared on my range meter that wouldn't have been there otherwise. I guess that's a glass-half-full way of looking at this.

The glass-half-empty crowd would have simply pointed out that it's a "total failure" for not being able to completely recharge the near-empty battery in the Sion (I think it was a 60kWh LFP pack) in half an hour . . . at night.

Things I got from that Munro video . . .

The engineering that went into durably molding the PV into a plastic panel that wasn't going to short out when exposed to moisture, or shatter into a million razor-like shards in a collision, and how they were going to get them to be smoother-looking with the next iteration. Also, the muti-channel MPPT charge controller that makes solar charging possoble in less-than-optimal and maybe even outright terrible light conditions.

And I really like the way Thomas Hausch explains everything in plain language without sensationalism. He was brought in during the company's later years for marketing and his experience with the international automotive scene. Hausch was part of Nissan's rollout team in Europe when the Leaf was first introduced there. There was talk of the Sion coming to the US after the European rollout and it's guys like Hausch who would have been needed to make that a reality.

 

[Swinefuzz]

The glass-half-empty crowd would have simply pointed out that it's a "total failure" for not being able to completely recharge the near-empty battery in the Sion (I think it was a 60kWh LFP pack) in half an hour . . . at night.

Yeah, I hear you about the "total failure" naysayers. I am cynical. Just look at my profile pic. It's been a hard life. Don't judge.

But to be a good Eagle Scout, one must be prepared and that means taking a realistic stance on all things, like "the woods are trying to murder me" so definitely know how to whittle a stick into a rudimentary spear and tie some cool knots.

Using scads of portable solar panels to partially charge a truck isn't total failure. But it is too inconvenient and inefficient to be a solution day after day, year after year. That GoSun contraption is impressive in its own way, but it's also expensive and only yields 1/3 of the power I would need daily, so realistically it doesn't work FOR ME and would be a waste of my money.

How many people balked at the Wright Brothers as they went through scads of laughable prototypes like flapping plywood before they finally figured out curved wing shapes and forward propulsion and lift and cracked the code?

A lot of stuff in the EV startups look like the Wright Brothers stuck in a perpetual state of their flapping plywood era. Have you seen the Telo? They removed the tried and true front-of-car shape exposing the front wheels to all the elements AND catching lots of air drag, then put a vent hole at the back of the wheel well that is guaranteed to spray rocks and mud all over the side of the truck after a light rain.

 

[Sparkie]

If my Slate was covered in PV panels, I would be freaking out. Big time!

I live in the USA.
People here are too careless with shopping carts, how they drive, open car doors in tight space, and toss trash out the window while driving.
Then there's all the random rocks that get kicked up on the highway.

It's bad enough that my paint gets chipped and windshield is cracked, but with those expensive EV panels now catching all that abuse.... No thanks!
I would be too paranoid to drive anywhere.

 

[Benjamin Nead]

Yeah, I hear you about the "total failure" naysayers. I am cynical. Just look at my profile pic. It's been a hard life. Don't judge.

But to be a good Eagle Scout, one must be prepared and that means taking a realistic stance on all things, like "the woods are trying to murder me" so definitely know how to whittle a stick into a rudimentary spear and tie some cool knots.

Using scads of portable solar panels to partially charge a truck isn't total failure. But it is too inconvenient and inefficient to be a solution day after day, year after year. That GoSun contraption is impressive in its own way, but it's also expensive and only yields 1/3 of the power I would need daily, so realistically it doesn't work FOR ME and would be a waste of my money.

How many people balked at the Wright Brothers as they went through scads of laughable prototypes like flapping plywood before they finally figured out curved wing shapes and forward propulsion and lift and cracked the code?

A lot of stuff in the EV startups look like the Wright Brothers stuck in a perpetual state of their flapping plywood era. Have you seen the Telo? They removed the tried and true front-of-car shape exposing the front wheels to all the elements AND catching lots of air drag, then put a vent hole at the back of the wheel well that is guaranteed to spray rocks and mud all over the side of the truck after a light rain.

A sense of humor is important in today's world. Also, I'm a sucker for cat pictures. Here's my housemate . . .

And I checked out GoSun EV Charger you're talking about . . .



That's a pretty neat looking gadget, actually. With my i-MiEV, though, half of it would be lying on the ground. Also, I'm not seeing any prices listed anywhere. Fabric textured PV panels can often be shorter in lifespan than the glass faced ones, and be rather pricey to boot.

The Telo? What can I say.? I like it. The odd styling doesn't bother me all that much, as it has a lot in common with the squat-nosed i-MiEV. They put a big battery and a powerful motor in the Telo. That part of it is overkill for what I need and the price is reported to be around $41K. So, I'll pass. The Slate fits my budget and I'm so glad they're keeping it super simple.

 

[cvollers]

A sense of humor is important in today's world. Also, I'm a sucker for cat pictures. Here's my housemate . . .

And I checked out GoSun EV Charger you're talking about . . .



That's a pretty neat looking gadget, actually. With my i-MiEV, though, half of it would be lying on the ground. Also, I'm not seeing any prices listed anywhere. Fabric textured PV panels can often be shorter in lifespan than the glass faced ones, and be rather pricey to boot.

The Telo? What can I say.? I like it. The odd styling doesn't bother me all that much, as it has a lot in common with the squat-nosed i-MiEV. They put a big battery and a powerful motor in the Telo. That part of it is overkill for what I need and the price is reported to be around $41K. So, I'll pass. The Slate fits my budget and I'm so glad they're keeping it super simple.

At quoted prices, the Telo is close to the Rivian R2 which, although not a truck, is going to be a much better vehicle than the Telo. If $45-50K is your budget, the choice is a no brainer.

 

[Slashsnake]

I'm thinking this could be an option. The current aptera prototype can produce 545W of power from the solar panels in the vehicle body. If the base Slate (with a 52.7 kWh battery and ~150-mile range) had solar panels like the Aptera’s 545W system and sat in full sun for about 6-8 hours a day, it could hypothetically gain approximately 9.31-12.41 miles of range per day from solar alone. This could significantly offset light local driving or commuting — especially if the vehicle is parked outside during the day. Thoughts?

It's that price vs. reward math that hurts.

To get that on a vehicle is expensive. Looking at the 3 miles or so per kwh, and 17 cents a kWh average in the US, that's about 62 cents a day in savings. IF you park outside and have sunny days. Figure 65% of days in the US (higher in places than others, this would vary) are sunny, that's about 150 bucks a year.

Figure you are looking at a 5 year ROI (break even point if you opt in on it) that's $750. I'm not sure the cost that would go into integrated body panels that are solar, and all the work to engineer and develop that and the costs to add the manufacturing and installation of that on the production lines... but I struggle to see it as something that would come out ahead.

 

[catiare]

When I mentioned Aptera, was mainly because it's the only active vehicle in development right now that has that technology. Sonos had a similar concept (I wish they would not run out of money back then) or even Lightyear. The point being is that adding some permanent solar panels (and related electronics) to some of the panels of the car as an option would be a good idea as to augment the battery of the vehicle when the car is outside, parked or on the move. I asked in the past on an Aptera subreddit what was the cost of that solar portion for the Aptera and the guesstimated number was between $500-$750 (volume produced). That should be less than the jump from 150-250mi battery. So for certain applications it might work. I know Telo signed up with Aptera to provide this as an option. So perhaps Slate will add this to their list of "upgradeable options". We'll see.

 

[sodamo]

It's that price vs. reward math that hurts.

To get that on a vehicle is expensive. Looking at the 3 miles or so per kwh, and 17 cents a kWh average in the US, that's about 62 cents a day in savings. IF you park outside and have sunny days. Figure 65% of days in the US (higher in places than others, this would vary) are sunny, that's about 150 bucks a year.

Figure you are looking at a 5 year ROI (break even point if you opt in on it) that's $750. I'm not sure the cost that would go into integrated body panels that are solar, and all the work to engineer and develop that and the costs to add the manufacturing and installation of that on the production lines... but I struggle to see it as something that would come out ahead.

Cost benefit analysis a challenge.
For me, the commercial cost of kw isn’t a factor. Comes down to the extra range from larger battery vs solar generated away from home. If I can get an additional 10-15 miles via on board solar for $1000 or less vs $5k for larger battery, very tempting.