Article: Slate Auto CEO Chris Barman tells us how exactly it’s making a $25,000 EV

[AZFox]

@motorolas found a good article that has an informative interview of Slate Auto CEO Chris Barman.

Slate Auto CEO Chris Barman tells us how exactly it’s making a $25,000 EV -- The automotive veteran explains why her company can deliver a cheap electric vehicle when others, like Tesla, have failed.

Here's a link to @motorolas' likable post.

 

[sodamo]

Excellent read, informative

 

[E90400K]

Just a few comments. My education background is industrial engineering, and I worked early in my career as an equipment planning engineer at an aerospace manufacturing plant, which means I spec'd, planned for and assisted in the installation of manufacturing equipment and machinery. I studied plastics manufacturing as part of my engineering curriculum. I'm pretty well versed in industrial manufacturing, but no expert in the automotive sector, though as a car geek, I've followed car manufacturing in an intellectual interest for the part 40 years.

I found her revelation about the manual window crank mechanism interesting because in other posts I've stated I do not see a cost savings in manual-crank windows when the vast majority of the industry uses electric windows. She confirmed what I thought, which is there are no American suppliers in the automotive sector that manufacture manual crank window assemblies. So, they had to source from Brazil. I've not looked, but if the US tariff posture has changed for Brazil regarding automotive parts, even a 5% tariff increase may make the manual windows more expensive than US-sourced electric windows. And why did Slate develop an electric window accessory, which hopefully is sourced from a non-tariff US supplier. It just says gimmic to me.

Second, the choice of MIC FRP (molded in color fiber reinforced plastic) panels. I get the capitalization (CapEx) position that lots of cost is saved by not having a paint shop at the factory, which I think led to moving to MIC FRP panels. GM pioneered this body architecture with the Fiero, the Pontiac Transport/Olds Silhouette, then the spaceframe/plastic panels architecture was the basis of the entire Saturn car company (initially - before GM Corp. got involved and pulled Saturn back into the corporate fold). But I don't think plastic panels are any less costly to produce than stamped steel alternatives. Slate's reasoning is that the company saves CapEx on not having stamping machinery in the plant to produce the panels and the MIC saves the requirement to pant the panels. Yet (as we know from the Monroe video) the chassis will be fabricated in the plant from supplier-sourced stamped steel parts using an automated welding line. The chassis then will be E-coated on site in the plant. While not the same process as spray-painting the assembled body, the metal is coated with a decent looking paint-like application to prevent corrosion. It can be wrapped to the choice of color just as much as the planned plastic body.

GM developed the Fiero (and follow-on GM models) spaceframe/plastic architecture to reduce manufacturing costs as well reducing generational body design changes since the panels are non-structural, bolt-on parts, which makes updating the design much less costly. So, if Slate's idea is to produce a one-color "blank Slate" that has to be wrapped by the customer to change paint color, why not just build the body with steel panels and E-coat the whole thing? I would think the Slate FRP panels is standing up a new supplier base that is going to produce the large plastic panels since most of the industry uses steel stampings. Manufacturing large plastic panels that need some level of good surface finish and color consistency is not inexpensive. Large plastic injection molding machines and dies are not cheap, which is CapEx Slate will pay for via its supplier pricing. Note that GM abandoned its spaceframe/plastic panel architecture decades ago, which could be reasoning that it turned out in the end not to be less expensive to produce(?). So, my thought here is, what is Slate doing different than GM to make the spaceframe/plastic panel architecture financially viable?

I think Slate's idea that customers are going to embrace the idea of DIY wrapping their newly purchased Blank Slate is on the edge of wishful thinking. Yeah, the marketing tagline is "the panels are designed for easy wrap application" (of Slate's wrap kit), but still, there is some art and skill to wrapping a car body that I'd say even the most auto DIY'ers (like me) don't have. Expecting a DIY'er who is not skilled in wrapping to get an acceptable finish the first time out is not realistic in my opinion. I'll probably rattle-can mine since I have much more experience painting with a spray can than I do vinyl wrapping a car. And no tools are needed to use a rattle can, where wrapping requires a unique tool set.

I do think the BYOD infotainment is a great idea and cost savings for development purposes, but does it really save that much? They still have a Seattle-based software team on staff to develop what software is needed for the EV drivetrain control and smartphone apps. I'm sure the automotive industry by now has a decent supplier base of infotainment developers.

Just some observations.

 

[The Weatherman]

S

Just a few comments. My education background is industrial engineering, and I worked early in my career as an equipment planning engineer at an aerospace manufacturing plant, which means I spec'd, planned for and assisted in the installation of manufacturing equipment and machinery. I studied plastics manufacturing as part of my engineering curriculum. I'm pretty well versed in industrial manufacturing, but no expert in the automotive sector, though as a car geek, I've followed car manufacturing in an intellectual interest for the part 40 years.

I found her revelation about the manual window crank mechanism interesting because in other posts I've stated I do not see a cost savings in manual-crank windows when the vast majority of the industry uses electric windows. She confirmed what I thought, which is there are no American suppliers in the automotive sector that manufacture manual crank window assemblies. So, they had to source from Brazil. I've not looked, but if the US tariff posture has changed for Brazil regarding automotive parts, even a 5% tariff increase may make the manual windows more expensive than US-sourced electric windows. And why did Slate develop an electric window accessory, which hopefully is sourced from a non-tariff US supplier. It just says gimmic to me.

Second, the choice of MIC FRP (molded in color fiber reinforced plastic) panels. I get the capitalization (CapEx) position that lots of cost is saved by not having a paint shop at the factory, which I think led to moving to MIC FRP panels. GM pioneered this body architecture with the Fiero, the Pontiac Transport/Olds Silhouette, then the spaceframe/plastic panels architecture was the basis of the entire Saturn car company (initially - before GM Corp. got involved and pulled Saturn back into the corporate fold). But I don't think plastic panels are any less costly to produce than stamped steel alternatives. Slate's reasoning is that the company saves CapEx on not having stamping machinery in the plant to produce the panels and the MIC saves the requirement to pant the panels. Yet (as we know from the Monroe video) the chassis will be fabricated in the plant from supplier-sourced stamped steel parts using an automated welding line. The chassis then will be E-coated on site in the plant. While not the same process as spray-painting the assembled body, the metal is coated with a decent looking paint-like application to prevent corrosion. It can be wrapped to the choice of color just as much as the planned plastic body.

GM developed the Fiero (and follow-on GM models) spaceframe/plastic architecture to reduce manufacturing costs as well reducing generational body design changes since the panels are non-structural, bolt-on parts, which makes updating the design much less costly. So, if Slate's idea is to produce a one-color "blank Slate" that has to be wrapped by the customer to change paint color, why not just build the body with steel panels and E-coat the whole thing? I would think the Slate FRP panels is standing up a new supplier base that is going to produce the large plastic panels since most of the industry uses steel stampings. Manufacturing large plastic panels that need some level of good surface finish and color consistency is not inexpensive. Large plastic injection molding machines and dies are not cheap, which is CapEx Slate will pay for via its supplier pricing. Note that GM abandoned its spaceframe/plastic panel architecture decades ago, which could be reasoning that it turned out in the end not to be less expensive to produce(?). So, my thought here is, what is Slate doing different than GM to make the spaceframe/plastic panel architecture financially viable?

I think Slate's idea that customers are going to embrace the idea of DIY wrapping their newly purchased Blank Slate is on the edge of wishful thinking. Yeah, the marketing tagline is "the panels are designed for easy wrap application" (of Slate's wrap kit), but still, there is some art and skill to wrapping a car body that I'd say even the most auto DIY'ers (like me) don't have. Expecting a DIY'er who is not skilled in wrapping to get an acceptable finish the first time out is not realistic in my opinion. I'll probably rattle-can mine since I have much more experience painting with a spray can than I do vinyl wrapping a car. And no tools are needed to use a rattle can, where wrapping requires a unique tool set.

I do think the BYOD infotainment is a great idea and cost savings for development purposes, but does it really save that much? They still have a Seattle-based software team on staff to develop what software is needed for the EV drivetrain control and smartphone apps. I'm sure the automotive industry by now has a decent supplier base of infotainment developers.

Just some observations.

So you are definitely not interested in purchasing one then huh? We’ll put you down as a definite No - Negative Nelly.

 

[E90400K]

S

So you are definitely not interested in purchasing one then huh? We’ll put you down as a definite No - Negative Nelly.

I'm not sure why you are offended and getting so pissy about my post.

I'm just pondering the business execution and asking questions based on my somewhat semi-experienced understanding. I reserved on day 2 and hope this experiment works out. I have a dying pickup truck (GM product) in need of replacement and the Slate fits my use case perfectly.

I'm not negative by any stretch; I'm highly interested in the Slate endeavor being successful as much as I am Tesla continuing to be successful. To be honest, when I used to dream of standing up my own car company, Slate's execution model is pretty much how I envisioned doing it, using the GM spaceframe concept and even down to repurposing a manufacturing facility.

I think GM's spaceframe/plastic panel architecture was genius and studied it intensely because the development of the Fiero starting in the late 1970s into the early 1980's was when I was in college studying industrial engineering. But like all things GM, when it develops innovative new automotive state of the art, for some reason it abandons it and goes back to the status quo. The Fiero and its Transport/Silhouette and Saturn follow-ons and the Chevrolet Volt are two instances where I think GM was decades in advance of the rest of the industry; it is just baffling to me why they gave up on both. GM started an entirely new company based on the spaceframe architecture (Saturn) to progress the concept, along with trying to shed the UAW monkey on its back.

The Chevy Volt was, and IMO still is, the state of the art in the series hybrid technology. Its integrated engine/electric motor transaxle drivetrain (called Voltec) is pure engineering genius; if you ever care to study it, you might reach the same opinion.

Thanks to AZ for posting the Barman interview.

I thought I'd post my thoughts to generate more positive and in-depth discussion with other members here who have similar automotive interests and industry knowledge as I do. You apparently are not in that group.

 

[The Weatherman]

It’s not this post, it’s every post you have placed here. So, bye for now as he hits the ‘ignore’ button in the profile of @E90400K .

 

[E90400K]

It’s not this post, it’s every post you have placed here. So, bye for now as he hits the ‘ignore’ button in the profile of @E90400K .

Sniff-sniff.

 

[GaRailroader]

I found her revelation about the manual window crank mechanism interesting because in other posts I've stated I do not see a cost savings in manual-crank windows when the vast majority of the industry uses electric windows. She confirmed what I thought, which is there are no American suppliers in the automotive sector that manufacture manual crank window assemblies. So, they had to source from Brazil. I've not looked, but if the US tariff posture has changed for Brazil regarding automotive parts, even a 5% tariff increase may make the manual windows more expensive than US-sourced electric windows. And why did Slate develop an electric window accessory, which hopefully is sourced from a non-tariff US supplier. It just says gimmic to me.

Whether it is cost neutral/more expensive/less expensive I hope they ship with manual windows. Never had a manual window regulator fail on the 3 prior cars I've owned with manual windows. I have replaced more power window regulators than I care to remember. Never once I have I thought isn't this luxurious that I can push this button and make the window go up or down.

Second, the choice of MIC FRP (molded in color fiber reinforced plastic) panels. I get the capitalization (CapEx) position that lots of cost is saved by not having a paint shop at the factory, which I think led to moving to MIC FRP panels. GM pioneered this body architecture with the Fiero, the Pontiac Transport/Olds Silhouette, then the spaceframe/plastic panels architecture was the basis of the entire Saturn car company (initially - before GM Corp. got involved and pulled Saturn back into the corporate fold). But I don't think plastic panels are any less costly to produce than stamped steel alternatives. Slate's reasoning is that the company saves CapEx on not having stamping machinery in the plant to produce the panels and the MIC saves the requirement to pant the panels. Yet (as we know from the Monroe video) the chassis will be fabricated in the plant from supplier-sourced stamped steel parts using an automated welding line. The chassis then will be E-coated on site in the plant. While not the same process as spray-painting the assembled body, the metal is coated with a decent looking paint-like application to prevent corrosion. It can be wrapped to the choice of color just as much as the planned plastic body.

GM developed the Fiero (and follow-on GM models) spaceframe/plastic architecture to reduce manufacturing costs as well reducing generational body design changes since the panels are non-structural, bolt-on parts, which makes updating the design much less costly. So, if Slate's idea is to produce a one-color "blank Slate" that has to be wrapped by the customer to change paint color, why not just build the body with steel panels and E-coat the whole thing? I would think the Slate FRP panels is standing up a new supplier base that is going to produce the large plastic panels since most of the industry uses steel stampings. Manufacturing large plastic panels that need some level of good surface finish and color consistency is not inexpensive. Large plastic injection molding machines and dies are not cheap, which is CapEx Slate will pay for via its supplier pricing. Note that GM abandoned its spaceframe/plastic panel architecture decades ago, which could be reasoning that it turned out in the end not to be less expensive to produce(?). So, my thought here is, what is Slate doing different than GM to make the spaceframe/plastic panel architecture financially viable?

I think the big difference is not painting the panels right? Perhaps they could have gotten there with steel panels and an e-coating. Tesla is also using molded in color plastic on the Cybercab. I got caught in a hail storm the other day coming home from work in my Nissan Leaf, and I was wishing I had a Slate, now that I have all these little hail dings on the Leaf. Certainly glad I was in the Leaf and not the Tesla.

I think Slate's idea that customers are going to embrace the idea of DIY wrapping their newly purchased Blank Slate is on the edge of wishful thinking. Yeah, the marketing tagline is "the panels are designed for easy wrap application" (of Slate's wrap kit), but still, there is some art and skill to wrapping a car body that I'd say even the most auto DIY'ers (like me) don't have. Expecting a DIY'er who is not skilled in wrapping to get an acceptable finish the first time out is not realistic in my opinion. I'll probably rattle-can mine since I have much more experience painting with a spray can than I do vinyl wrapping a car. And no tools are needed to use a rattle can, where wrapping requires a unique tool set.

I think it was on the Munro video where CEO said that if an owner was not comfortable wrapping the truck themselves they could pay a professional 2 or 3 hundred dollars to install the wrap. I share your concern that I don't think me installing the wrap would look very good. $500 for the wrap kit and $300 to install seems reasonable. I would happily pay the $800 to get the Kawasaki green wrap on my Slate.

 

[Doctors Do Little]

It’s not this post, it’s every post you have placed here. So, bye for now as he hits the ‘ignore’ button in the profile of @E90400K .

Hey Dean, Where in KY are you located? (Just curious as a native Kentuckian.) E90400K is alright. He is skeptical, but seems to have some engineering chops, so I read (or skim) most of what he posts to bounce against what I thought I already understood. Anyway, your mileage may vary. Game on.

 

[E90400K]

Whether it is cost neutral/more expensive/less expensive I hope they ship with manual windows. Never had a manual window regulator fail on the 3 prior cars I've owned with manual windows. I have replaced more power window regulators than I care to remember. Never once I have I thought isn't this luxurious that I can push this button and make the window go up or down.


I think the big difference is not painting the panels right? Perhaps they could have gotten there with steel panels and an e-coating. Tesla is also using molded in color plastic on the Cybercab. I got caught in a hail storm the other day coming home from work in my Nissan Leaf, and I was wishing I had a Slate, now that I have all these little hail dings on the Leaf. Certainly glad I was in the Leaf and not the Tesla.


I think it was on the Munro video where CEO said that if an owner was not comfortable wrapping the truck themselves they could pay a professional 2 or 3 hundred dollars to install the wrap. I share your concern that I don't think me installing the wrap would look very good. $500 for the wrap kit and $300 to install seems reasonable. I would happily pay the $800 to get the Kawasaki green wrap on my Slate.

I write most of this about the body panels as I have direct experience with both the Fiero and Saturn. Of two of my older brothers, one was an early adopter of the Fiero; he bought new a 1984 2M4 and my other brother bought new two Saturns, one each of the 1992 SC1 then an 1995 SL2. A lot of my interest in the Slate is reestablishment of the Spaceframe/plastic panel architecture. No one can debate the corrosion resistance the FRP panels will provide. Maybe though, is there a UV durability concern for un-wrapped Slate body panels? We'll see what Slate recommends as maintenance for the panels. My MIC top on my Bronco seems to be holding up well, though I do park it in a covered carport.

But the wrapping part. It's fine to say a professional installer will charge just $200 or $300 to install the $500 wrap kit, but who really knows what the aftermarket will charge. And what if the professional wrap shop screws up a piece of the Slate vinyl kit. Can they get a replacement section from Slate and eat the cost to the customer? The Slate will cost $25,000 plus $800(?) for a wrap, it starts to get the MSRP into painted/infotainment ICEV/Hybrid territory.

Again, not being negative about it, just considering real world issues. as challenges to Slate's success. I doubt anyone here wants to buy a Slate only to see the company fold after a few years with no financial incentive to maintain support for the brand. I hope for 2-shifts pumping out 140,000 units a year from Warsaw indefinitely.

 

[atreis]

I found her revelation about the manual window crank mechanism interesting because in other posts I've stated I do not see a cost savings in manual-crank windows when the vast majority of the industry uses electric windows. She confirmed what I thought, which is there are no American suppliers in the automotive sector that manufacture manual crank window assemblies. So, they had to source from Brazil. I've not looked, but if the US tariff posture has changed for Brazil regarding automotive parts, even a 5% tariff increase may make the manual windows more expensive than US-sourced electric windows. And why did Slate develop an electric window accessory, which hopefully is sourced from a non-tariff US supplier. It just says gimmic to me.

I've also been thinking about some of the cost aspects of their approach too. In terms of the manual windows, I basically decided it's purely marketing. They needed something that screams: THIS CAR IS BARE BONES! Manual windows is pretty effective at accomplishing that while also being something fairly innocuous to many people.

Second, the choice of MIC FRP (molded in color fiber reinforced plastic) panels.

I had a '94 SC2 (made before GM folded the company back in) and absolutely loved it. I loved the buying and delivery process, I loved the car, and I had no issues with it. My wife had a '95 SC2 (made after GM folded the company back in) and had significantly more issues with it even though it had fewer miles than mine. That's anecdote, but it was what it was.

I've been curious why GM moved away from the technology too. It seemed quite good to me, and it's still used here and there. Some of the body panels in my Nissan Ariya are MIC FRP.

Why for Slate? My take, which of course is pulled out of my arse: It makes some DIY aspects a lot easier. If you want to remove a body panel it's pretty painless if they're just bolted onto a frame in the first place, and the bolting is easy to access. At a guess, they may have plans to offer different panel options down the road. I don't know if it's possible with this kind of plastic, but translucent or semi-translucent panels would be neat. As for the manufacturing cost savings, or not, I haven't got a clue.

I think Slate's idea that customers are going to embrace the idea of DIY wrapping their newly purchased Blank Slate is on the edge of wishful thinking.

Completely agree! No way would I try to wrap a car myself. Installing some of the other kits (SUV, etc.) I'd be fine with, but not wrapping. I suspect a few people will try it early on, fail miserably and complain to Slate, and Slate will stop offering the DIY kits because of support costs.

I do think the BYOD infotainment is a great idea and cost savings for development purposes, but does it really save that much?

I also LOVE this idea. I love it because it lets me get the head unit and speakers I really want rather than having to pay for theirs then swap them out for the ones I want.

Between this and the very small driver info display though, they're likely saving on the order of $2k or more by not having the largish screens that other EVs have, head unit, speakers, the manufacturing time to install those things, warranty and support costs for them, licensing costs for an infotainment OS (QNX, AAOS with GAS, or roll their own like Rivian did), warranty and support costs for that OS and its apps and updates to those things over the years, and integration costs. They have to have the software developers for the car software and phone app regardless, but there is also significant additional development required to integrate QNX or GAS (or whatever is on top of AAOS) with the car's systems that they're saving.

$2K on the price of a car isn't a lot, but when the difference between a price that's (just) under $25K or a price that's $2K higher could make or break the company, this is a good choice on their part.

 

[The Weatherman]

Hey Dean, Where in KY are you located? (Just curious as a native Kentuckian.) E90400K is alright. He is skeptical, but seems to have some engineering chops, so I read (or skim) most of what he posts to bounce against what I thought I already understood. Anyway, your mileage may vary. Game on.

South Central KY.

 

[E90400K]

I've also been thinking about some of the cost aspects of their approach too. In terms of the manual windows, I basically decided it's purely marketing. They needed something that screams: THIS CAR IS BARE BONES! Manual windows is pretty effective at accomplishing that while also being something fairly innocuous to many people.



I had a '94 SC2 (made before GM folded the company back in) and absolutely loved it. I loved the buying and delivery process, I loved the car, and I had no issues with it. My wife had a '95 SC2 (made after GM folded the company back in) and had significantly more issues with it even though it had fewer miles than mine. That's anecdote, but it was what it was.

I've been curious why GM moved away from the technology too. It seemed quite good to me, and it's still used here and there. Some of the body panels in my Nissan Ariya are MIC FRP.

Why for Slate? My take, which of course is pulled out of my arse: It makes some DIY aspects a lot easier. If you want to remove a body panel it's pretty painless if they're just bolted onto a frame in the first place, and the bolting is easy to access. At a guess, they may have plans to offer different panel options down the road. I don't know if it's possible with this kind of plastic, but translucent or semi-translucent panels would be neat. As for the manufacturing cost savings, or not, I haven't got a clue.



Completely agree! No way would I try to wrap a car myself. Installing some of the other kits (SUV, etc.) I'd be fine with, but not wrapping. I suspect a few people will try it early on, fail miserably and complain to Slate, and Slate will stop offering the DIY kits because of support costs.



I also LOVE this idea. I love it because it lets me get the head unit and speakers I really want rather than having to pay for theirs then swap them out for the ones I want.

Between this and the very small driver info display though, they're likely saving on the order of $2k or more by not having the largish screens that other EVs have, head unit, speakers, the manufacturing time to install those things, warranty and support costs for them, licensing costs for an infotainment OS (QNX, AAOS with GAS, or roll their own like Rivian did), warranty and support costs for that OS and its apps and updates to those things over the years, and integration costs. They have to have the software developers for the car software and phone app regardless, but there is also significant additional development required to integrate QNX or GAS (or whatever is on top of AAOS) with the car's systems that they're saving.

$2K on the price of a car isn't a lot, but when the difference between a price that's (just) under $25K or a price that's $2K higher could make or break the company, this is a good choice on their part.

Thanks for engaging in the discussion. I think we both see the Slate experiment in the same way based on prior experience with GM's plastic platform. My opinion is all cars should use the spaceframe/plastic panel architecture, but I am honest though about the industry didn't adopt it and there has to be reasons why. I think cost is one reason why. My thought is the cost savings, even with the attribute of low-cost to redesign the body for model-year updates, did not pan out as GM thought. Which is why I question what has Slate found in it to retry with its truck to adopt the spaceframe/plastic panel architecture if manufacturing costs are a primary concern. I think it is a legitimate question to ask. If I had a chance to ask Chris Barman, that's my #1 question; really it is my only question.

I love the whole idea and I'm truly excited about it, but cautious it will work. My brother who owned the two Saturns is totally stoked about the Slate (I told him about it). He has an aging Ranger he will need to replace in a few years.

 

[GaRailroader]

But the wrapping part. It's fine to say a professional installer will charge just $200 or $300 to install the $500 wrap kit, but who really knows what the aftermarket will charge. And what if the professional wrap shop screws up a piece of the Slate vinyl kit. Can they get a replacement section from Slate and eat the cost to the customer? The Slate will cost $25,000 plus $800(?) for a wrap, it starts to get the MSRP into painted/infotainment ICEV/Hybrid territory.

For me, I am not cross shopping ICEV/hybrid at any price. I've owned my last ICE vehicle and not going back. I'll take power windows if I must, but EV drive-train is non-negotiable. Fingers crossed that wraps installed for $800 ends up being realistic. I paid $3k for multi-coat red paint on my(wife's) Tesla. On my wife's next Tesla, we will pay $2k extra for quicksilver. Tesla's prices for a different color make the Slate wraps look really competitive.

 

[GaRailroader]

My first new car(my wife's actually) was a 1992 Saturn SL2. Kept it until 2004 with 180k miles. Body looked great when we sold it.