LFP Battery Chemistry

[GaRailroader]

I read where GM is partnering with Samsung and LG for LFP batteries made in the US. I would really like to see Slate go with the LFP chemistry. Perhaps SK On could get LFP's in the US going as well. With the tax credit likely going away this would be a way to reduce cost and increase longevity. NMC packs don't like the high cycle life like LFPs do. Plus being a shorter range battery, having something you can routinely charge to 100% would be a bonus. Perhaps simplify to a 1 battery choice instead of 2. Probably can't get 240 miles out of the full pack, perhaps a 210 or 220 mile pack as the only option.

PJ

 

[panjak]

It's very difficult to predict future battery prices with all this tariffs kerfuffle. I believe thats a biggest concern here, the LFP technology is there and gonna become cheaper with time anyway. However, you gonna pay for raw materials no matter what. The problem is also what's avalaible on NA market at what price. If capacity of US producers will be low, you will need to import anyway, and with tariffs this will drive prices up. With older technology capacity may be better. Anyway, Installing different battery pack is not something very complicated, just change charging settings and off you go, so this will happen as soon as prices will be right.

 

[AZFox]

Shot:

Our cathode products are applicable to multiple customer segments, and have spurred multiple commercial and sampling engagements
‍
LFP Industry Standard
LMFP Differentiator
LMX Breakthrough​

Chaser:

 

[Benjamin Nead]

The first email I sent to Slate was a question on battery chemistry. I, too, was hoping for LFP. But I wasn't too profoundly disappointed when it was made known that it would be NMC. We have to remember that the vehicle was developed in stealth mode beginning in 2023. The supply chain in North America at the time centered around NMC and this is what Slate could secure for a volume buy.

It looks like the contract with SK On is good through 2031. Who really knows what battery chemistry is going to be on top of everyone's list by then? What I'm hoping to see from Slate is a flexibility in relations with aftermarket concerns. This may find a third party developing a pack that's an advancement of what Slate is going to be providing at launch. This doesn't have tp happen right away. Maybe 8 to 10 years from now, when a lot of these vehicles will hopefully be out there and the original packs will start to show their age.

 

[AZFox]

This may find a third party developing a pack that's an advancement of what Slate is going to be providing at launch. This doesn't have tp happen right away.

This happened for my electric drill.

 

[cvollers]

This happened for my electric drill.

Suddenly my feed is full of Milwaukee ads hawking battery powered tool and accessory cases. I have to admit, they are nice.

 

[AZFox]

This happened for my electric drill.

I'll expound...

TL;DR: When battery technology improves you can cram more readily-available electrons into the same space.

The drill I'm referring to is a Sears. I upgraded to a Bosch years ago. If you use drills very much you've discovered that having two drills is better than having only one because you can avoid switching bits by putting one size bit in one drill and another size in the other. It's avoids switching bit sizes back and forth during a project. Or maybe a drill bit and a countersink. You get the idea...

So I went online and searched for a replacement battery using my Sears drill's model number. The third-party replacement batteries hold a lot more power than the originals. The originals must have been Ni-Cads and the replacements have NiMH cells instead.

It stands to reason that battery technology, which is being researched heavily, will improve significantly by the time anyone's Slate original battery has lost its oomph.

 

[Benjamin Nead]

Shot:

Our cathode products are applicable to multiple customer segments, and have spurred multiple commercial and sampling engagements
‍
LFP Industry Standard
LMFP Differentiator
LMX Breakthrough​

Chaser:

And here's another, right here in Arizona. American Battery Factory (ABF) in Tucson will hopefully be coming online sometime in 2025. I think their initial product will be prismatic LFP cells for solar storage applications . . .

https://americanbatteryfactory.com/press/2024-03-18-abf-partners-with-lead

Obviously, these are also excellent EV batteries. Slightly less energy dense than NMC, less prone to thermal runaway if something goes wrong, but very durable when needing to cycle from near zero to 100%. The only thing one has to be concerned with when choosing LFP is they don't like being charged when the ambient temperature is at freezing. Thermal management in an LFP pack that needs to live outside would typically include cell heating of some sort. They actually work quite well in high heat, up to around 140° F without issue.

 

[Benjamin Nead]

Suddenly my feed is full of Milwaukee ads hawking battery powered tool and accessory cases. I have to admit, they are nice.

I've got a lot of Milwaukee battery stuff here. Hanging around the hardware or big box store and striking up conversations with contractors in the power tool isle, Milwaukee always comes to the top of the list as their big favorite. The section of different tools they make is also impressive.

I think they're using an NMC variant for their batteries these days. It's an excellent high energy density formula for this application. There's a lot of good scuttlebutt videos on YouTube explaining the differences between this or that Milwaukee battery series. Also, beware of the counterfeit ones out there.

 

[AZFox]

And here's another, right here in Arizona. American Battery Factory (ABF) in Tucson will hopefully be coming online sometime in 2025. I think their initial product will be prismatic LFP cells for solar storage applications . . .

Mitra Chem (the company in my Shot/Chaser post) makes "cathode products", which I think are what goes inside cells, not the cells themselves.

I should have been more clear about that.

Chamath Palihapitiya, one of the four venture capitalists who are on the All-In Podcast, is on the Mitra Chem board. Chamath is a smart cookie! He thinks we need domestic sources for battery materials so he did something about it. 💪

OT: Chamath just announced a big 1.5 GW Data Center project in Arizona. It's a $25 Billion project out near Bill Gate's "smart city" west of the Phoenix Metro Area (over near the Palo Verde Nuke Plant). We also have that whopper-sized TSMC microchip plant up north that's getting going. Lots of stuff happening in our state. Go AZ go.

 

[metroshot]

I'd love to switch from the 15 year old NCM battery first gen tech to a better more energy dense, faster recharge battery like solid state or sodium.

I still charge my NCM to 100% every time on L2 or at Tesla Superchargers.

 

[Benjamin Nead]

I'll expound...

TL;DR: When battery technology improves you can cram more readily-available electrons into the same space.

The drill I'm referring to is a Sears. I upgraded to a Bosch years ago. If you use drills very much you've discovered that having two drills is better than having only one because you can avoid switching bits by putting one size bit in one drill and another size in the other. It's avoids switching bit sizes back and forth during a project. Or maybe a drill bit and a countersink. You get the idea...

So I went online and searched for a replacement battery using my Sears drill's model number. The third-party replacement batteries hold a lot more power than the originals. The originals must have been Ni-Cads and the replacements have NiMH cells instead.

It stands to reason that battery technology, which is being researched heavily, will improve significantly by the time anyone's Slate original battery has lost its oomph.

NiMH was an important battery chemistry in the late 1990s. It was the nominal replacenet for NiCad. NiMH cells from Ovonics are what was in the later production GM EV1s. The sad story of what happened next, as GM was crushing the cars, is detailed here . . .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_encumbrance_of_large_automotive_NiMH_batteries

There are also scenes in the 2006 movie "Who Killed The Electric Car?" recounting this history.

Small format "legal" NiMH cells saw some interesting development in the early 2000s. Those Sanyo/Panasonic Eneloop AA and AAA sized cells addressed a long-standing issue with early NiMH: a too-quick self discharge. But charging a NiMH cell is electrinically more involved in the first place. Not sure if I can effectively explain what Delta Sigma modulation charging is, but it's different enough from whats more common - and electronically simpler - when dealing with both lead acid and all things lithium: CCCV, or Constant Current Constant Voltage charging. By the time all the Chevron patents went away, though, NiMH was considered old hat for making into a modern EV battery. All the lithium ion formulas had already moved into that space.

Speaking of tool batteries, DeWalt was a hot item back around 2008 or so. When EV converters of the day wanted the highest quality LFP cells, they would lust after what A123 was making. Trouble was, A123 wouldn't sell to just anyone who wasn't buying shipping containers full of them at a time. But someone discovered that DeWalt tool batteries you could buy off the shelf at places like Home Depot were stuffed with genuine but unmarked A123 cylindrical LFPs. It wasn't uncommon back then to see eBay listings for 50 DeWalt tool packs available to the highest bidder.

LFP went through a strange metamophosis for about a decade. Following some intense litigation in around 2010-12, virtually all the manufacturing moved to China and, thanks to a lot of patent issues that needed to play out and expire, wasn't really available to come back to the US until 2022.

 

[Benjamin Nead]

I'd love to switch from the 15 year old NCM battery first gen tech to a better more energy dense, faster recharge battery like solid state or sodium.

I still charge my NCM to 100% every time on L2 or at Tesla Superchargers.

Sodium is less energy dense than LFP and has a shorter lifespan. The main advantage over LFP is lower cost and better cold weather performance. It will undoubtedly get better over time and will probably make it's biggest impact with solar storage, more so than automotive.

Likewise, I've been hearing about solid state getting ready to break through any day now for the past 12 years or so. This isn't to say there hasn't been any progress. But it really has been a slow and steady slog for a very long time. Matt Ferrell on his Undecided YouTube channel has had some interesting videos in recent months on newer developments in solid state battery tech.

A modern NMC pack won't instantly fall apart with constant 100% charging, especially if you're not always starting out at almost completely empty every time. But the 20 to 80% cycling rule is a known quantity for those who are looking for longest pack life with NMC.

 

[metroshot]

......
A modern NMC pack won't instantly fall apart with constant 100% charging, especially if you're not always starting out at almost completely empty every time. But the 20 to 80% cycling rule is a known quantity for those who are looking for longest pack life with NMC.

Yeah I keep hearing that but past 12 years with Tesla shows that charging to 100% is not detrimental.

There's a SOC buffer built into the BMW and you really can't get to true 100% charge.

With the 7% overhead that is protected, my Mach E only charges to 93% when it says 100%.

Not worried about the battery lasting past the 8 yr / 150,000 mile warranty as I don't expect to keep the car past 3-4 years - hoping for solid state batteries in my second gen EV.

 

[sodamo]

Sodium may be interesting, but I got burnt with the Aquion saltwater version, bankrupt about 30 days after I bought over $35k worth. Then they barely lasted 2 years. Love my LiFePo replacements.