Range predictions

[beatle]

I don't think LFP would bring the cost down as much as you think. It might save $1k on the base truck, but it would drop range by around 25%. That makes for a vehicle that most in the US will just turn their nose up - and that's before they realize what happens in the cold.

NMC is also a very durable chemistry and more consistent. No need to worry about charging it to full when you need it. The issues come if you're storing an NMC battery at a high SoC. Day to day a charge of 80-85% is plenty.

 

[Revenant89]

but it would drop range by around 25%.

Assuming they wouldn't add more cells?

 

[beatle]

Just doing a chemistry change, there's really no room for more cells or they'd be using that space for more cells already.

When Rivian added LFP to their lineup, they moved from cylindrical 2170 cells to prismatic bricks which make for a pack with less void, so the capacity didn't tank on the LFP truck. It's possible Slate could do something similar at some point if they have the volume, but right now, having not only two different chemistries, but also two different pack construction types really flies in the face of their simple-above-all ethos. Having a "premium" battery is probably one of the smartest places to spend money on the truck IMO.

 

[danielt1263]

Totally agree.. don't see a point for the smaller battery.

How about shaving $3-4k off the price? I'm fine with the smaller battery.

 

[danielt1263]

I definitely hope they change to LFP batteries.. it would make so much more sense. NMC only made sense to get the incentive. But if the highway range is much less than what they projected that will be upsetting.

Very unlikely. They were already under contract with SK ON when the incentive was dropped.

 

[Revenant89]

How about shaving $3-4k off the price? I'm fine with the smaller battery.

They would save money only producing one version. There's a reason the Bolt only has one and it was changed to LFP.

Very unlikely. They were already under contract with SK ON when the incentive was dropped.

They also make LFP.

 

[cadblu]

Pure speculation, but IF Slate introduces the base model with an LFP battery (as it has been rumored in other threads) to help contain costs, it could be a real winning strategy. We also know that Barman was hinting at different battery options about six months ago. Slate knows its customer base is keenly price sensitive, which has been the central theme to their affordability claim since day one. They really need to "wow" new customers, and it all hinges on price. They know anything significantly over $25K will turn prospective customers away, so they need to get it right the first time around. I look forward to the June 22nd pricing announcement, which is 30 days from now.

 

[Revenant89]

I hope they surprise us with like $23k base price.

 

[cadblu]

I don't think LFP would bring the cost down as much as you think. It might save $1k on the base truck, but it would drop range by around 25%. That makes for a vehicle that most in the US will just turn their nose up - and that's before they realize what happens in the cold.

Hmm, let's explore this a bit more. A blank Slate with a 52.7 kWh LFP battery that can still meet its range estimate of 150 miles by charging to 100% daily. That keeps charging 'simple' for everyone. True, range in cold weather for LFP is slightly worse, maybe 10%, compared to an equivalently sized NMC battery. But overall, a good tradeoff.

So, using your $1K estimate of savings, and if Slate announces the base price as $24k... well, that may just crash the servers at Slate. Auto when pre-orders open on June 22. And that is exactly what they are hoping for.

 

[beatle]

I don't think Slate would even offer a small LFP battery. Overall range would drop to 100-110 miles in ideal conditions, and in the cold the truck might only have 60-70 miles of range, even less on the highway. I'll reiterate that LFP batteries are awful in the cold. While you might see a range drop of 20% in the cold with an NMC battery, LFP can be 30-50% worse, and charging in freezing temperatures must also be incredibly slow to avoid permanently damaging the battery. Preheating is not always enough.

Since LFP is less dense than NMC, the large pack might only have 180 miles of range under ideal conditions. Cold on the highway might be around 100. Not to mention the difficult calibration and SoC estimates due to the flat voltage curve of LFP. You don't just have less range, you have even less confidence that you still have 20-30 miles of range remaining. This kind of capability would sour a lot of owners (especially new EV owners) and it would reflect poorly on Slate. Having LFP in the lineup would drive away more customers than it would attract. I would not buy a Slate with an LFP battery.

Rivian pivoted to LFP to save some money on the base trims, and then they abandoned that after less than 2 years due to a lot of frustrated customers. LFP can be good if you never have to deal with the cold and/or if you have a very predictable route. Rivian still uses LFP in their delivery vans since the vans are charged overnight in a garage and local delivery routes are consistent enough and relatively low speed that the range hit is still less than meaningful.

 

[danielt1263]

They would save money only producing one version. There's a reason the Bolt only has one and it was changed to LFP.

I don't think it would save several grand though...

They also make LFP.

I don't think contracts work that way. They likely didn't contract to buy "whatever", but a specific number of a specific type of pack... I could be wrong, and maybe they could renegotiate. I guess we'll see.

Even at $30k, Slate is still the cheapest new EV can is rated to tow. As long as I can tow my boat to the beach, I'll be happy.

 

[GaRailroader]

I don't think Slate would even offer a small LFP battery. Overall range would drop to 100-110 miles in ideal conditions, and in the cold the truck might only have 60-70 miles of range, even less on the highway. I'll reiterate that LFP batteries are awful in the cold. While you might see a range drop of 20% in the cold with an NMC battery, LFP can be 30-50% worse, and charging in freezing temperatures must also be incredibly slow to avoid permanently damaging the battery. Preheating is not always enough.

Since LFP is less dense than NMC, the large pack might only have 180 miles of range under ideal conditions. Cold on the highway might be around 100. Not to mention the difficult calibration and SoC estimates due to the flat voltage curve of LFP. You don't just have less range, you have even less confidence that you still have 20-30 miles of range remaining. This kind of capability would sour a lot of owners (especially new EV owners) and it would reflect poorly on Slate. Having LFP in the lineup would drive away more customers than it would attract. I would not buy a Slate with an LFP battery.

Rivian pivoted to LFP to save some money on the base trims, and then they abandoned that after less than 2 years due to a lot of frustrated customers. LFP can be good if you never have to deal with the cold and/or if you have a very predictable route. Rivian still uses LFP in their delivery vans since the vans are charged overnight in a garage and local delivery routes are consistent enough and relatively low speed that the range hit is still less than meaningful.

Might your negative opinion of LFP stem from a poor execution by Rivian with that chemistry? In general, LFP seems to have a much more positive view in the EV space. In particular, Tesla owners that have LFP seem to be happy with that chemistry. I have one NCA car and one NMC, for the Slate I would be delighted if it came with LFP.

 

[beatle]

Maybe, though my R1T doesn't have an LFP pack. The 3/Y has an LFP battery that's not much bigger than the Slate's small NMC, but the Tesla cars are much more aerodynamic which means a decrease in available capacity still allows them an acceptable range. They've already been optimizing those platforms for years before introducing LFP.

I still think the Slate is too small to use LFP, especially in its short range version. Perhaps later Slate will have a large LFP pack, or there will be advancements in sodium ion that improve its density since it's not affected by cold. I am still glad Slate didn't use LFP for their initial vehicle. There is too much that can go wrong if it's not perfectly executed.

 

[sodamo]

Thought I read where the SK On contract was based on capacity, total kw bought.

 

[danielt1263]

Thought I read where the SK On contract was based on capacity, total kw bought.

I don't know that the actual contract is available for the public to read. An article on Yahoo Finance says the agreement was for 20 GWh of "US made nickel-cobalt-manganese (NCM) batteries" to Slate over 6 years (2026-2031)

An article in insideevs.com quotes the head of engineering:

Eric Keipper, Slate’s head of engineering, said the automaker could’ve managed the 150-mile range of its base vehicle with LFP cells. But energy density would’ve been a problem for the longer-range, 240-mile version. That makes sense, given that the Slate truck is pretty tiny and there’s only so much space in the floor for battery cells.

“We wouldn't have necessarily been able to get the energy density with LFP. So that was one of the factors,” he told InsideEVs, when asked about the decision between the two chemistries. “But really it’s the availability in the United States.”

So it seems 240 mile range AND LFP would be a no-go for Slate...

A more recent insideevs article from Feb speculates about an LFP version being offered in the future, but that's just speculation.

Sources:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/sk-battery-deal-us-ev-091155200.html
https://insideevs.com/reviews/786896/slate-ev-pickup-truck-everything-we-know/
https://insideevs.com/news/757802/slate-ev-battery-chemistry-lfp/