The 'Slate' effect, will we see a wave of retro EVs like early 2000s cars?

[ScooterAsheville]

I hear a lot of takes on the Chinese from a lot of professional talking heads. Some convince me, some don't.

For example, there's the argument that the only reason the Chinese can deliver so much for so little is that they're heavily subsidized in a million ways. Including dirt cheap labor and horrible labor laws. The Chinese state also standardizes components, meaning you don't have 30 designs for any given part.

Then there is 10x6 ethos, where Chinese work ten hours a day, six days a week. As famously depicted in the award winning movie, "American Factory".

Then there is the fact that the Chinese graduate 200,000 engineers a year, dwarfing the output of the USA (we're all getting frigging marketing degrees, apparently).

Then there is the fact that the Chinese deliberately targeted BEVs as a national priority, and are pronounced to have a decade lead on the West. Meanwhile, we are a nation of automotive Luddites, wanting nothing to change. In the USA - enriching the oil and coal magnates is the only current priority, AFAICS.

So the arguments go back and forth. One side says China can't win in a fair fight, meaning they can't build cars in the USA to our standards, with our labor and parts, and keep the low prices. Another side says "oh yes they can". And yet another side, mainly consumers, says "why should I give a rat's ass about protecting the American auto industry - I want a great cheap car". Canada, Austrailia, South America, most of the undeveloped world - those are all examples of that last voice. And then another voice loudly says "automaking (manufacturing) is the backbone of a strong nation".

The most important thing about China is that their car market DWARFS ours. And the auto industry is all about global scale. So fine, lock them out. Have an average transaction price of $65,000 in a few years, gasoline vehicles only, while the rest of the world is swimming in $15,000 BEVs from China, subsidized or not, that keep the US makers pinned inside our borders - totally uncompetitive.

Farley understand this. He knows Ford either competes globally or diminishes to a USA-only maker of big trucks and SUVs, existing only because they are protected by tariffs and other barriers.

Choose your own point-of-view. Said differently, choose your poison.

 

[SichuanHot]

I think people in the US are too obsessed with range. Range is heavily influenced by the body style. Something has to give, and it has typically been the styling. Not to say an aerodynamic design can't look good, but retro designs are not particularly efficient.

Maybe if/when a more energy dense, not-so-expensive battery comes out that lets people get 300+ miles of range out of a midsized crossover not shaped like an egg, will we see more retro / creative styling.

There's nothing wrong with focusing on range and having it as a key metric for EVs. It's one of the few big factors in the whole ICE vs EV debate that will also decide ultimate livability of the vehicle.

The new BMW i3 will supposedly have 400 miles of range, which is impressive and makes the car attractive since it's not only bringing sportiness, but also efficiency in a traditional package. The new i3 would be far less impressive if it only had a 250 mile range like the top trim Lexus RZ.

 

[sglewiswl]

The reason I have no faith in the US autos is they failed to make good small cars to stave off Japanese competition. The only reason there isn't a HiLux on every corner is the chicken tax. They are following the same path with EVs. US EVs are never going to be at price parity with China, but without the recent CA/MX tariffs they could make an EV competitive.

 

[beatle]

The Mini Cooper SE is a good example of a car that doesn't trade style for aero. Its first gen config used the ICE platform and just shoved batteries wherever they would fit. It was surprisingly efficient.

There's nothing wrong with focusing on range and having it as a key metric for EVs. It's one of the few big factors in the whole ICE vs EV debate that will also decide ultimate livability of the vehicle.

The new BMW i3 will supposedly have 400 miles of range, which is impressive and makes the car attractive since it's not only bringing sportiness, but also efficiency in a traditional package. The new i3 would be far less impressive if it only had a 250 mile range like the top trim Lexus RZ.

It's not necessarily wrong, but it does affect the designs prioritizing aero. This happens with gas cars as well. Rivian's designs are surprisingly aerodynamic for their look. There are a lot of little tricks that don't show up unless you look for them.

 

[KevinRS]

The Mini Cooper SE is a good example of a car that doesn't trade style for aero. Its first gen config used the ICE platform and just shoved batteries wherever they would fit. It was surprisingly efficient.


It's not necessarily wrong, but it does affect the designs prioritizing aero. This happens with gas cars as well. Rivian's designs are surprisingly aerodynamic for their look. There are a lot of little tricks that don't show up unless you look for them.

I do think Slate is using some of those tricks. Notice the door handles sit flat, the stock wheels are relatively flat, flat grill, and the little spoilers on the roof and tailgate.

 

[IanNubbit]

I hear a lot of takes on the Chinese from a lot of professional talking heads. Some convince me, some don't.

For example, there's the argument that the only reason the Chinese can deliver so much for so little is that they're heavily subsidized in a million ways. Including dirt cheap labor and horrible labor laws. The Chinese state also standardizes components, meaning you don't have 30 designs for any given part.

Then there is 10x6 ethos, where Chinese work ten hours a day, six days a week. As famously depicted in the award winning movie, "American Factory".

Then there is the fact that the Chinese graduate 200,000 engineers a year, dwarfing the output of the USA (we're all getting frigging marketing degrees, apparently).

Then there is the fact that the Chinese deliberately targeted BEVs as a national priority, and are pronounced to have a decade lead on the West. Meanwhile, we are a nation of automotive Luddites, wanting nothing to change. In the USA - enriching the oil and coal magnates is the only current priority, AFAICS.

So the arguments go back and forth. One side says China can't win in a fair fight, meaning they can't build cars in the USA to our standards, with our labor and parts, and keep the low prices. Another side says "oh yes they can". And yet another side, mainly consumers, says "why should I give a rat's ass about protecting the American auto industry - I want a great cheap car". Canada, Austrailia, South America, most of the undeveloped world - those are all examples of that last voice. And then another voice loudly says "automaking (manufacturing) is the backbone of a strong nation".

The most important thing about China is that their car market DWARFS ours. And the auto industry is all about global scale. So fine, lock them out. Have an average transaction price of $65,000 in a few years, gasoline vehicles only, while the rest of the world is swimming in $15,000 BEVs from China, subsidized or not, that keep the US makers pinned inside our borders - totally uncompetitive.

Farley understand this. He knows Ford either competes globally or diminishes to a USA-only maker of big trucks and SUVs, existing only because they are protected by tariffs and other barriers.

Choose your own point-of-view. Said differently, choose your poison.

My "complaint" with Chinese EVs in the states is it will be another throw away product, packed with subscriptions and data harvesting. Sure the american brands data farm too, politics aside, the more chinese products/cars we have here, the more eyes we have on us from products directly funded by a foreign (and not so great) government.

With them being throw aways, you can have 2 of the three, reliable, cheap, and feature rich. Chinese EVs are very cheap, and are packed with every feature and more then most other brands, I'm sorry, but unless they magically solved vehicle manufacturing in all aspects before anyone ever has in the world, the cars are going to be junk in a few years. 60k miles, on a 5 year old car, that was let's say 30k new, will realistically be worth around 15k at best. once you realize that just one of those wrap around infotainment/cluster displays will fail eventually, that bill to replace is easily going to be in the $5-8k range and basically make the car pointless to repair after the cosst of labor is included, and that's if you can even get the part reliably.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

My "complaint" with Chinese EVs in the states is it will be another throw away product, packed with subscriptions and data harvesting. Sure the american brands data farm too, politics aside, the more chinese products/cars we have here, the more eyes we have on us from products directly funded by a foreign (and not so great) government.

With them being throw aways, you can have 2 of the three, reliable, cheap, and feature rich. Chinese EVs are very cheap, and are packed with every feature and more then most other brands, I'm sorry, but unless they magically solved vehicle manufacturing in all aspects before anyone ever has in the world, the cars are going to be junk in a few years. 60k miles, on a 5 year old car, that was let's say 30k new, will realistically be worth around 15k at best. once you realize that just one of those wrap around infotainment/cluster displays will fail eventually, that bill to replace is easily going to be in the $5-8k range and basically make the car pointless to repair after the cosst of labor is included, and that's if you can even get the part reliably.

Yikes! I sure hope Slate does a better job at manufacturing & presenting a quality product.

 

[sodamo]

Me too

 

[beatle]

My "complaint" with Chinese EVs in the states is it will be another throw away product, packed with subscriptions and data harvesting. Sure the american brands data farm too, politics aside, the more chinese products/cars we have here, the more eyes we have on us from products directly funded by a foreign (and not so great) government.

With them being throw aways, you can have 2 of the three, reliable, cheap, and feature rich. Chinese EVs are very cheap, and are packed with every feature and more then most other brands, I'm sorry, but unless they magically solved vehicle manufacturing in all aspects before anyone ever has in the world, the cars are going to be junk in a few years. 60k miles, on a 5 year old car, that was let's say 30k new, will realistically be worth around 15k at best. once you realize that just one of those wrap around infotainment/cluster displays will fail eventually, that bill to replace is easily going to be in the $5-8k range and basically make the car pointless to repair after the cosst of labor is included, and that's if you can even get the part reliably.

This problem isn't exclusive to Chinese EVs. Repairability has always been a problem with legacy automakers' EVs. Screens and infotainment replacements are generally not nearly as expensive as that though. For Tesla and Rivian they're half that, at worst. You're doomed in an EQS, but again, this is nothing new. High end brands have always been incredibly expensive to fix.

It is good to see Slate leaning forward on a vehicle that's not only simple, but repairable. Framework computers is similar in that you can upgrade and repair components of a laptop that would otherwise be sent to a service center or turned into ewaste..

 

[IanNubbit]

This problem isn't exclusive to Chinese EVs. Repairability has always been a problem with legacy automakers' EVs. Screens and infotainment replacements are generally not nearly as expensive as that though. For Tesla and Rivian they're half that, at worst. You're doomed in an EQS, but again, this is nothing new. High end brands have always been incredibly expensive to fix.

It is good to see Slate leaning forward on a vehicle that's not only simple, but repairable. Framework computers is similar in that you can upgrade and repair components of a laptop that would otherwise be sent to a service center or turned into ewaste..

Even just the basic radio on the wrangler/gladiator platform before the big 10” wide screen thing is $800 reman, $1,000 (leaving aside used, but I just sold on evay an 8.4” nav radio for $700). The nee larger radio in then, which is modest compared to some cars these days, and it’s not terrible to remove is $900. The radio, another $1500. And that’s on a more simple set-up. The new screen thing on the chinese built Lincoln whatever it’s call is over $10k just for the part. That’s on a vehicle that new retails at like 50k. This is the problem, its not that luxury cars have expensive parts, its that cheap cars are starting to have just as expensive parts. You think battery replacements totaling vehicles is bad, wait till you laugh at infotainment totaling vehicles.

 

[beatle]

Had to look up the Nautilus as I hadn't heard that one, but it is indeed crazy. Technically Lincoln is a luxury brand, but it's true that screen/infotainment prices are rising. They are still in the $2k - $4k range, but that's a bitter pill to swallow, and not exclusive to EVs.

I am most frustrated that you can't salvage these from existing vehicles due to manufacturers requiring "parts pairing" processes to make your physical repair actually functional. Technology does move on, and sometimes that increases the price, but this restrictive approach is nothing more than a cash grab by the manufacturers and an ewaste factory.

 

[E90400K]

Had to look up the Nautilus as I hadn't heard that one, but it is indeed crazy. Technically Lincoln is a luxury brand, but it's true that screen/infotainment prices are rising. They are still in the $2k - $4k range, but that's a bitter pill to swallow, and not exclusive to EVs.

I am most frustrated that you can't salvage these from existing vehicles due to manufacturers requiring "parts pairing" processes to make your physical repair actually functional. Technology does move on, and sometimes that increases the price, but this restrictive approach is nothing more than a cash grab by the manufacturers and an ewaste factory.

The Nautilus is built in China, so the mega screen is inexpensive and will serve the life of the vehicle.

 

[cadblu]

I am most frustrated that you can't salvage these from existing vehicles due to manufacturers requiring "parts pairing" processes to make your physical repair actually functional. Technology does move on, and sometimes that increases the price, but this restrictive approach is nothing more than a cash grab by the manufacturers and an ewaste factory.

I believe it was Lexus / Toyota that implemented a PIN code on factory stereo head units that locked the electronics to the original vehicle, making plug and play not possible. Enter the wrong code 3x and the system was bricked. I think other OEMs are employing the same strategy. Meaning you can’t pull a unit from a salvage yard and think it’s going to work. But it you contact the manufacturer they will be happy to unlock it for you for a ridiculous fee, like $500.

 

[bartflossom]

I think we should bring something back from the late 50's with tailfins.

Me, my Big Gulp, my crooked front plate, and my bigass CB antenna at Palo Duro Canyon in 1976

 

[beatle]

The Nautilus is built in China, so the mega screen is inexpensive and will serve the life of the vehicle.

These don't always last the life of the vehicle. There were many people replacing the center screens on the Model S for yellowing around the perimeter, and glue leaked out of the instrument cluster screen on the Model S as well. I have not seen anything indicating that this is an inexpensive part on the Nautilus to replace just because it's Chinese.

I believe it was Lexus / Toyota that implemented a PIN code on factory stereo head units that locked the electronics to the original vehicle, making plug and play not possible. Enter the wrong code 3x and the system was bricked. I think other OEMs are employing the same strategy. Meaning you can’t pull a unit from a salvage yard and think it’s going to work. But it you contact the manufacturer they will be happy to unlock it for you for a ridiculous fee, like $500.

Those PINs were to protect from thieves, not from you replacing it on your own. The cost to unlock them wasn't $500. Most people would just replace them anyway since there are less expensive options with more features available on the aftermarket. I think my 2007 and 2012 Ridgelines each had a PIN to the stereo. I took it out and tossed it when I replaced the head units a few days after I bought them.