I think I am “over The Slate”

[sodamo]

I'm not following. Wouldn't higher charge rates produce more heat? That's what typically happens for smaller devices like phones, tablets, laptops - why would that be different for an EV?

The chargers themselves not same efficiency. Also the time factor where the longer it takes to charge the on board electronics consume more.
google. eV charging efficiency Level 1 vs Level 2

 

[beatle]

When you charge, the vehicle is "awake" and burning more electrons to run the BMS, coolant pumps, charger, and other systems. When you charge at a super slow rate like 120v @ 12A, all those systems have to stay online longer which wastes energy. This is especially pronounced in cold temperatures where the car might be using all the energy to heat the battery and not have any left to put energy into it. I charged my Model S at a friend's house back in 2019 on a 5-15R in his garage. It was raining and around freezing, and I got almost nothing added to the battery:

To be totally clear on the numbers, I did sleep in the car overnight which obviously used energy not tracked here, but during the day I saw the battery climb by about 0.8% / hour. On a usable 81kwh battery, that's 648wh per hour. That's half of what I was pulling from the wall.

The step up voltage conversion from 240v to 400-800v is also less efficient than from stepping up from 120v. There are also differences in charging amps, with the most efficient charging happening around 32A since more energy is wasted as heat.

 

[bloo]

The step up voltage conversion from 240v to 400-800v is also less efficient than from stepping up from 120v.

I think you meant the other way around.

 

[bloo]

I'm not following. Wouldn't higher charge rates produce more heat? That's what typically happens for smaller devices like phones, tablets, laptops - why would that be different for an EV?

Power = Volts * Amps. At lower voltages, you need more Amps to get the same power. And that's what gets you. Amps generate heat in the charging converter. That wasted heat is power that never gets into your battery.

As others have said, charger efficiency is a bigger factor than charge rate at 120 Volts than 240.

There's also step-up efficiency, ad beatle mentioned. 120VAC converted to DC through a simple rectifier gets you about 169VDC. 240VAC likewise converted gets to about 339VDC. You need a lot less boost to charge a 400-Volt battery, so some efficiency gain there.

Are there any forum moderators here? This discussion should be moved to a thread of its own as it has drifted significantly from the original post, making future searching for info difficult.

Disagree. It highlights why it's important Slate has chosen to include a Level 2 charger. That may influence others' decisions to stay or go.

 

[beatle]

I think you meant the other way around.

Yes, good catch!

 

[E90400K]

I'm not following. Wouldn't higher charge rates produce more heat? That's what typically happens for smaller devices like phones, tablets, laptops - why would that be different for an EV?

Are there any forum moderators here? This discussion should be moved to a thread of its own as it has drifted significantly from the original post, making future searching for info difficult.

Less heat loss.

 

[smack daddy]

Is that the same Ford that was going to have a sub-$40k BEV F150 (a.k.a. Lightning)? How did that work out?

I didn’t say I was holding my breath for it ford never stays under budget

 

[AZFox]

How would level 2 charging use less total electricity for the same amount of charge?

Your definitive answer answer is here.

Whatever the reason is, it's undoubtedly a thing.

On average, Level 2 charging was 5.6% more efficient than Level 1 (89.4% vs. 83.8%). In those charges in which the battery took up less than 4 kWh, this difference in efficiency was even greater: 87.2% for Level 2 vs. 74.2% for Level 1. Efficiency gains of Level 2 charging also increased under low (<; 50°F) and high (> 70°F) temperatures.​

​

Source: https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7046253

I looked into the L2-vs-L1 topic when it was discussed in another thread. I wasn't interested in Level to before that, but changed my mind. Level 2 will be the way I'll go unless the electrical work is prohibitively expensive.

Efficiency Gain was the deciding factor. I prefer, on general principles, not wasting electricity.

Level 2 is also slightly easier on the vehicle (because it needs to be "awake" for less time), so that helps.

See also:
Recurrent: Is your EV battery getting all the energy you pay for?

 

[IamSpotted]

The amount of energy required to charge the battery is essentially the same regardless of whether you use Level 1 or Level 2. What changes is efficiency, not the total energy in a meaningful way.


Level 2 charging operates at a higher voltage, which allows the same power to be delivered with lower current. Electrical losses in wires and components are governed by I²R losses, where I is current and R is resistance. Since losses increase with the square of current, reducing current significantly reduces heat losses. As a result, a higher percentage of the electricity delivered reaches the battery instead of being lost as heat.


In practice, measured efficiency reflects multiple loss sources, not just wiring. Typical real-world efficiency ranges are roughly:

• Level 1: ~75% to 90%
• Level 2: ~85% to 95%

These differences come from several factors:

• Resistive (I²R) losses in charging cables and connectors, sometimes referred to as transmission losses
• Onboard AC-to-DC conversion losses in the vehicle’s charger
• Fixed overhead loads such as vehicle electronics and battery management systems, which run during the entire charging session
• Battery balancing and management
• Thermal management systems that may heat or cool the battery to maintain optimal temperature during charging

Battery management systems actively balance individual cells to keep voltages aligned across the pack. This process can consume additional energy or slightly extend charging as the system ensures all cells are properly balanced. Like with RC battery chargers, balancing can involve continual adjustments at the cell level, which contributes to the total energy drawn beyond the nominal battery capacity.


As an example, a 60 amp breaker circuit provides about 48 amps continuous at 240 volts, or roughly 11.5 kW, while a Level 1 charger typically draws about 12 amps at 120 volts, or roughly 1.4 kW. The Level 2 setup delivers much faster charging and tends to waste slightly less energy overall due to reduced resistive losses and shorter charging duration.


Overall, the main factors that affect charging losses when using an AC (Level 1 or Level 2) charger are the EV’s onboard AC-to-DC converter, the charging equipment and cable, the battery system (including whether it has thermal management), and the charging power level. Some of the electricity lost is attributed to transmission (resistive) losses, some is lost as heat during conversion and operation of components, and some is used to keep the battery within an optimal temperature range during charging.

 

[AZFox]

Efficiency also reduces (or waste increases might be a batter way to put it) significantly as the battery nears full charge.

Put another way, a smaller percentage of electricity from the outlet reaches the battery when charging, say, the top 10% compared when charging at lower states of charge.

I think that's another reason why always charging to 100% isn't recommended.

 

[SichuanHot]

Efficiency also reduces (or waste increases might be a batter way to put it) significantly as the battery nears full charge.

Put another way, a smaller percentage of electricity from the outlet reaches the battery when charging, say, the top 10% compared when charging at lower states of charge.

I think that's another reason why always charging to 100% isn't recommended.

Lithium based batteries' bulk of working efficiency is from 3.9v - 3.0v per cell. Charging the extra to 4.2v gets you the full capacity but isn't necessary because of the slower charge rate as it gets to 4.2v. As other mentioned it also increases wear on the battery.

 

[beatle]

The BMS will also balance the cells/modules when the pack gets close to full, and this "balancing act" also wastes energy. IIRC Tesla started to balance at 93%.

 

[drizzle]

I know they said pricing coming in June but I think I’m going to need some more info before then, I may not be able to wait until the end of the year to get a truck and I think it’s kinda crazy 9 months or less away from launch and I feel like we still don’t really know a lot about the truck

 

[John Santa Fe]

The more threads I read and the more I think about it, the more I feel I’m over the Slate.

I really wanted an EV before I leave this world. It seemed like it could be a great second vehicle and a practical everyday car for local driving. But I live in rural upstate New York, with cold winters and hot summers, and the more I look at the reality of this vehicle, the less it feels like a bargain for me.

The small battery and limited range are hard enough to accept, but when you add in just how stripped-down the base Slate is, it starts to feel like very little vehicle for the money. On top of that, this would be a brand-new vehicle coming off a brand-new production line from a brand-new factory, with all the risks that come with that. Rear-wheel drive only is another concern for me.

Then there’s the fact that I’d need to add at least a few basics just to make it workable for my needs, like the SUV kit and a stereo. And now that the $7,500 rebate is no longer part of the equation, the original low-cost pitch doesn’t hit the same way at all.

It starts to feel like a hornet’s nest of possible issues for a vehicle that, in its basic form, offers very little. Sure, you can customize it all you want, but then you wind up paying what many other EVs already cost. Even keeping it fairly stripped down, with just the SUV kit and stereo added, the price keeps creeping up. Then there are taxes, destination charges, and the cost of hiring a licensed electrician to install a proper charging setup in my garage.

I tried. I really did. I put down a deposit on day two because I wanted to stay excited about it. But time and reality have worn me down, and for me, the Slate now feels like an absurd purchase.

I hope the company succeeds, and I hope those of you still on board end up with a vehicle you love. Good luck to all of you, and thanks for making this a fun board to follow.

Rear Wheel Drive only living in upstate NY is an issue, but it really sounds like you are over an electric car and not Slate specifically. Even with its long-range battery, the Slate vehicle will be far less expensive than Ford's future universal-platform small pickup truck. I have been testing whether using a Tablet to replace the radio and entertainment system works. I found it does. I used Google Maps on an 11" display, and for $20/year, SimpleRado gives me access to all local stations and many national and international stations. Downsides: my phone is the WiFi hotspot when I am in the mountains and lose cell service, so SimpleRadio does not work. When first using, each ride takes 30 seconds to enable tethering on my phone and connect. As a 2nd car in a family, the Slate can be an excellent choice. Need to drive 280 miles one-way; it's going to take longer than with a gas vehicle.

 

[NMNeil]

I didn’t say I was holding my breath for it ford never stays under budget

My local Ford dealership has 2 Mach-E Mustangs in the showroom, but neither can legally be sold until they have fixed the 19 NHTSA safety recalls.
So I don't think Ford will be much of a competitor.
And my main initial attraction to Slate was what it did'nt have but Ford will undoubted have;
Internet connectivity with software updates ready to brick the system.
Subscription service to make half the truck work properly, or at all.
A big screen TV instead of a dashboard costing a fortune when it broke and ready to inundate you with puerile ads by listening to your conversations all the time you are driving.
https://sherwood.news/business/the-...makers-now-view-infotainment-screens-as-huge/
No thanks.